Lucid Cafe

Wendy: 00:02

You're listening to Lucid Cafe. I'm your host, Wendy Halley. Hi. Thanks for joining me. I gotta say I've been looking forward to sharing this episode with you since recording it back in September.

Wendy: 00:41

But before we dive in, I wanna share something a little more personal. So I wrote a novel called Raven's Daughter: the Story Keeper. And while it's fiction, it was inspired by some really intriguing shamanic experiences I've had, and a question I haven't been able to shake. What if the confusion, the distortion, and division we're experiencing isn't random? What if it's something we've been living inside of for a very long time?

Wendy: 01:12

The story follows Charlie, a young woman who just wants a normal safe life, but begins having dreams that pull her into a much bigger reality. One where truth itself is under threat and something is quietly influencing the human mind. It's part psychological, it's part metaphysical, and really an invitation to look at our world and ourselves a little differently. If you're someone who's been sensing that there's more going on beneath the surface of things, this book might resonate with you. You can find Raven's Daughter wherever books are sold or in the show notes.

Wendy: 01:50

Alright. On with the episode. I learned about my guest, Dave Clark, from a client of mine who mentioned him in passing, and I had the immediate desire to connect with him and learn more about his work. I'm glad I followed through. Not only is Dave a gifted intuitive, but he's also a really good teacher and just a nice guy.

Wendy: 02:11

I say this from direct experience. I don't know if after listening to this conversation, you'll feel the same pull I did to experience his gifts, but if you do, tell Dave I said hi. After recording this interview, I not only felt compelled to have a reading with him, which has never happened in the almost eight years of doing this podcast, but after the very accurate reading Dave gave me, I decided to learn from him too. I'd already been kind of feeling like it was time to refine and expand the way I perceive and what I've been learning through Dave's teachings. It's really good stuff.

Wendy: 02:49

So in this episode, Dave talks about his work as a clairvoyant reader, healer, and teacher, as well as his background and extensive training. For example, in 2013 he began intensive study with Michael and Rafael Tamura through their Sears Healers Apprenticeship Practicum Experience or SHAPE group and completed his clairvoyant training program at the Intuitive Awareness Center in Georgia, Vermont. So please sit back and enjoy my conversation with Dave Clark. Dave, thanks so much for joining me.

Dave: 03:25

Thank you. I appreciate it. Thank you for having me.

Wendy: 03:28

Absolutely. I I don't know much about your work other than you are an intuitive. Mhmm. I'd love to hear what it is that you do. Like, how do you work with folks?

Dave: 03:39

Yeah. Well, I kind of call myself a clairvoyant reader, healer, and teacher. So in the one on one sessions that I do, which are all over the phone, basically, just look at the energy in relationship to whatever area of life they want me to look at and see what shows up. And I I do it from the perspective of healing versus I don't tell people what to do, and I don't predict the future or anything. I look at energetically what's going on, what has led them to have this experience in their life.

Dave: 04:08

And by reading that, then they can get their energy out of those limits that were creating that experience so that they can change and have make new decisions in relationship to their life. So if someone comes and wants to look at their relationship space, so and then maybe their communication with their partner is isn't the way that they would like it to be. So then I'll take a look energetically and see what's going on within them that's leading to the conflict. And by doing that, the shining the light of awareness on it, it starts to heal it and unfold it. Their energy in there making them think that's real starts to come out, and they get more of their light back, more of their power back to make a new decision that heretofore they couldn't make because it was stuck in those limits.

Dave: 04:52

So I can look at all kinds of areas of life. There's no real limit to that. So, you know, you can look at the health, look at relationships, and work tends to be the three main things.

Wendy: 05:02

That makes sense.

Dave: 05:03

But we can look at people who have transitioned and spiritual path, personal path, all all different types

Wendy: 05:09

of mediumship things. Too?

Dave: 05:11

Well, I don't channel.

Wendy: 05:12

Or or just meaning connecting with people Yes. Who've died.

Dave: 05:15

Absolutely. Yep. And I do it from the clairvoyant space. So I see them and then they will communicate to me and then I'll communicate what they're saying to their loved one.

Wendy: 05:23

Yeah. That's what I always thought mediumship was, what you just described. I don't know.

Dave: 05:27

I think there's lots of different versions of it. The type that I was referring to is a type where someone brings an entity in.

Dave: 05:34

Oh, like a trance medium.

Dave: 05:35

Trance medium. Yeah. Gotcha. Yep. So I don't do that.

Dave: 05:38

I do it from the clairvoyant space and then just communicate it. And they can the spirit to spirit communication tends to be very healing for people. It's like that validation of spirit helps them let go, and then they end up having more of their power back and can make new decisions. So that that's the basic gist of it. I just look and read the energy and then help them get their energy out of the limits because it's when we have trauma or we have past life experiences that might influence our present life, our energy is in there making it real to us, and we might not be aware of that.

Dave: 06:12

Generally, we're unconscious to it. And we might wonder, why is this same thing keep happening to me in my life? Right. I wanted to change. Why can't I get it to change?

Dave: 06:20

Or why can't I make more money? Or why whatever it might be. And you take a look at it. Oh, you're holding this your energy unconsciously in a past life picture. So that's why you're afraid of water or something like that.

Dave: 06:31

Or you're holding guilt or shame or lots lots of us as healers, including myself, we when we first started doing, like, this type of work and even when I was unconscious of it and not aware because I didn't grow up this way. I grew up in a family of addiction and on one side and then my dad's side was born again Christian, like, really hardcore. So it's just really strong polarity.

Wendy: 06:51

I bet.

Dave: 06:52

I kinda gravitate more towards the the addiction side, more towards the hidden side. I was I wasn't aware that I was a psychic or, you know, clairvoyant at the time. When I look back, I can see. But at the time, I played basketball to help manage all that energy that I was picking up psychically and not aware, and I drank to get out of the body to manage all that stuff.

Wendy: 07:14

Yeah.

Dave: 07:14

So once I once I had my I had a daughter who was severely disabled, and she had a birth injury and didn't walk or talk her whole life, and that just shifted everything. And then within nine of nine years of, like, trying to heal her and do everything I could and

Wendy: 07:30

You yourself or or just working with the medical system to try to help her?

Dave: 07:35

Well, I didn't realize I was trying to heal her at the time. I see. After the fact I realized I was doing like, I spent three to six hours a day with manual therapy that I learned from other people to apply to try and help her release some of the spastic quadriplegia she was in. She was very bound.

Wendy: 07:50

Oh, man. Okay.

Dave: 07:52

So I spent, like, sick I quit my job, became a stay at home dad, and just spent, like, my whole just everything I could to try and help her. I even took her to school as her paraeducator to get her involved in the school system to because I figured I might as well just do it. I had already been in special education prior to that. I was teaching kids with autism in Baltimore. I'm from Baltimore, Maryland.

Dave: 08:12

So I kinda knew the system and how it would kind of be challenging if I wasn't there just doing it. I've heard stories. Yeah. So so I was just I was able to get her involved and I'm strong. So I was able to carry around and get her really included with the kids.

Dave: 08:27

After about nine years, around her ninth year, I found a clairvoyant training program here in Georgia, Vermont. It was run by doctor Gayle Myers and, Gwyneth Flack. And I thought, man, if this woman who's a physician believes enough in this to teach it, I gotta give it a try. Maybe they'll help me communicate with Ella a little bit better. But turned out to be about my own spiritual path, and I realized I was already communicating with Ella really profoundly.

Dave: 08:51

So then that catapulted me, and I've been studying clairvoyants and taking lots and lots of classes for about fourteen years now. And I studied for about eight years before I started giving paid readings. And even when I started then, it was on part time basis. I was just doing a little here, little there, and I was working as a early childhood special educator. And then slowly but surely, like, building it until then COVID, and it was like the company I was working for, which is Vermont Family Network, lost their funding and just thrust me.

Dave: 09:21

Like, I gotta give it a go. So Yeah. And I've been doing it full time for about four or five years now. And so it's from my perspective, it's a training process. Like, you have to it's a muscle just like anything else.

Dave: 09:33

You have to practice it.

Wendy: 09:34

I'll drink to that.

Dave: 09:34

Yeah. You know? Yep. And and everyone's clarifying.

Wendy: 09:37

Discipline of sorts.

Dave: 09:38

It is. Yeah. It's like a devotion. Everyone's psyche, it's just we're not aware of it. We have so much stuff covering it over.

Dave: 09:45

That that's what I found in my own personal training is I just had to peel all the layers away of disbelief.

Wendy: 09:51

I would love to hear what you consider the layers to be.

Dave: 09:54

Mhmm. Well, some of them, they're it's just being born into this world generally that we just get born into a world that doesn't believe, and we end up osmotically taking on that programming. It's it's almost like we don't we don't even question it and and society's going along. Right. And so that that's one of the most challenging

Wendy: 10:15

It's a problem.

Dave: 10:15

It's a problem. Yeah. Deprogramming from two things that I found is the intellect, which school systems always are advocating for. How smart are you? How it tells you you gotta have the right answer, all that stuff.

Dave: 10:27

And and so it's an intellectual process. It's not true knowledge. And I find it's funny because when I was in college, I even realized then before I was aware, was like, god, I'm tired of regurgitating information. Like, I was good at it. I got good grades and stuff and I I was like, it's nothing's new.

Dave: 10:42

It's, like, so boring. So that's one. And then, you know, we all get programmed into feeling things too. So I tended to be a more of an intellectual, and I numb myself to my feelings the way that I was brought up and stuff. I just had a hardness.

Dave: 10:57

So I I I generally had to have had to redevelop my ability to tune into that because I just went more into the intellectual and could explain things away and all kinds of stuff. You know? But other people get programmed to feel everything, and they have to feel it to make it real. And so but that's generally based off the physical. That's not based off spirit.

Dave: 11:18

We don't our second chakras and our fourth chakras are programmed to make spirit more real than the physical. They're programmed that the physical is more real. And that's what Ella taught me through her dying process and and her life. Like, one time I was wheeling her into a an assembly at the Champlain Elementary, which is in Burlington, Vermont. Because of the crowds and stuff, I'd either get there first or last.

Dave: 11:39

And so this time, I said, go, what to get there last? And we walk in, and I swear all 400 heads turned and looked at Ella. And I thought to myself, I can't command that kind of attention. When I walk into a room, I thought, holy moly. She's already communicating way more profoundly than I realized until that moment.

Dave: 11:58

And then when she passed, I had a really kind of miraculous experience of I was holding her, and she and my wife was sitting next to me holding her feet. And my wife said, she's gone. And I turned and looked, and she was gone. But then the veil literally went down. And I just went right over to the other side, and I saw Ella being greeted by three beautiful light beings.

Dave: 12:21

And it was just miraculous. It's so hard to talk about because it was timeless yet celebratory. It was still yet like, it was a college graduation with people throwing their hats in the air. You know? It was just unbelievable.

Dave: 12:34

And so right then, at that moment, I'm like, I know we're I know there's no one that's ever gonna tell me we're not spiritual beings and eternal. Like, that solidified You it for

Wendy: 12:45

You have that direct experience. Oh. No one can take that away from you. Right?

Dave: 12:47

That's right.

Wendy: 12:48

Yeah, I had a woman on the podcast years ago, she wrote a book about shared death experiences. And that's what it sounds like you had.

Dave: 12:56

Yeah, yeah. What I realized is I kinda went through that death portal with her and went to the other side

Wendy: 13:02

Mhmm.

Dave: 13:03

With her. And then then then, of course, I was sucked back in. And the veil came down, we're all crying. It took took quite a long time for me to to deconstruct the identity I created around being Ella's dad. So that was one of my biggest growth experiences was I didn't realize how much energy I was putting into my identity as her dad.

Dave: 13:24

And, yeah, I am her dad, but I'm also way bigger than that. Yeah. And the only way that I've from my personal experience to reconcile the death of a child without and being able to truly transcend the grief is to become clairvoyant psychic. You have to see clairvoyantly, which really just means discern. Right?

Dave: 13:43

Discernment. Discern the truth from the lie. And without that, I don't know how anyone could transcend it because you won't be you'll be basing everything off the physical, and the physical's not there anymore. So that that's how I started to learn how to make spirit more real because it truly is more real. It's where everything manifested from here comes from.

Dave: 14:07

By building my relationship with Ella out of the body and recognizing that she didn't go anywhere. It's just the veil. It's just like she's right there.

Wendy: 14:16

Yeah.

Dave: 14:16

But you have to you have to use your clairvoyant, your sixth chakra.

Wendy: 14:20

Tune your focus.

Dave: 14:21

Yeah. Tune your focus.

Wendy: 14:22

To where she is.

Dave: 14:23

That's right. Yeah. And then you recognize, oh, the relationship never ends. But the heart and the second chakra go, well, where is she? You know?

Dave: 14:30

She's not there in the physical anymore. I and we spent a lot of time, you know, caring, giving her, changing diapers, feeding her, and all that stuff because she couldn't walk or talk. So a lot of intimacy with that with that process. And so you're again, unconsciously got programmed to need that, you know, that feedback. And so that this whole my whole training of Clairvoyant helped me deprogram that so I could see more clearly what was really happening.

Dave: 14:58

Then I could also see the value of her birth and death versus the tragedy of it. And so it was really a miraculous experience. And when I looked back in my incarnational experiences, I I've seen at least two other lifetimes where I lost children. So I've had maybe I'm a slow learner. It took at least three lifetimes for me to, like, get this awareness of the eternal nature of spirit and have the experiential reality of that, not just the intellectual concept of it.

Dave: 15:30

Right. Being able to really see it and and have that certainty that it is there and it's eternal, And it's just the programming of this illusion that gets us tied into it, and we don't believe in it.

Wendy: 15:42

So then did your- was that the initiating event when your daughter died and you had that shared death experience with her that started you on this path? Or was it already happening?

Dave: 15:56

Two years before she passed, I started my clairvoyant training. Okay. I had And that program, generally a clairvoyant training program, like in the past, with the lineage that I'm in, which is the Berkeley Psychic Institute lineage with Spaswick and Michael Tamora and some other people. My teacher was those Gwyneth and Gale, but then I studied in the advanced programs with Michael Tamora, who was in California, who died a couple years ago just recently. But, usually, it's a one year program, and it's, like, two classes a week for one year.

Dave: 16:26

But they, because they were appealing to professionals, spread it out over two years. So I'd really just completed my clairvoyant training program, and and Ella passed.

Wendy: 16:36

So you were kinda primed.

Dave: 16:37

Yeah. It kinda opened up. That experience. Yep. Yeah.

Dave: 16:40

Yep. And so but it still was really much the beginning. You know? I still didn't have a lot to understand. Still wasn't able to see very clearly.

Dave: 16:49

Like, I I'm seeing more clear. But it's it's, you know, the sixth chakra, the Clairvoyant, that's the cosmic. Right? It's the all seeing eye. That's why they call it that.

Dave: 16:57

So there's a lot of layers to unraveling that awareness. You know?

Wendy: 17:02

Yeah. I mean, because you hit on something that I've been hyper focused on lately too in my own practice and actually just wrote a book of fiction about this idea that just how top heavy we are in our culture, meaning that we're highly intellectual, we're very cognitive focused, wanting to understand and use logic.

Dave: 17:29

Mhmm.

Wendy: 17:29

But the thing is is that that part of us is very vulnerable to deception. Because we, like you were pointing out with the beliefs that we have that aren't necessarily serving us or closing doors for us, we can get stuck in our heads and have the illusion that we can control things Mhmm. By problem solving the hell out of them.

Dave: 17:52

Mhmm. Yeah.

Wendy: 17:54

And then we find ourselves stuck all the time. And I find that even people who are very emotive are more and I I don't know if this is the case with the folks that you've encountered or or maybe your way of looking at things, but that even the those of us who have access to our feelings, it might be more from a reactive place than an actual perceptive place. Because to me, the body is the perceiver.

Wendy: 18:21

And so it also is the source of emotions and feelings. And if you have so much mental noise, it's really hard to perceive.

Dave: 18:31

It is.

Wendy: 18:32

Yeah. Which is probably what you're dealing with when you're training folks.

Dave: 18:35

Yeah. It's my level one class is all about stilling the mind enough so that you can Exactly. Access what's there all the time.

Wendy: 18:42

It's a problem.

Dave: 18:43

Yes. It is. For all of us. All that noise, it just drowns it out because the world's so loud.

Wendy: 18:48

It's so loud. It's getting louder.

Dave: 18:50

It is. Especially with all the electronics. Right. Yeah. And, you know, to your point around the feelings and the emoting, you know, not all things that feel bad are bad for us.

Dave: 19:02

Mhmm. Not all things that feel good are good for us. And I always use a really extreme example, but heroin, everyone knows, feels great. But it's not gonna be good for you in the long run. Right?

Dave: 19:12

Right. It's the same with lots of other feelings. Like spiritual growth sometimes can feel awful because you're letting go of the ego.

Wendy: 19:19

Frequently.

Dave: 19:20

Yeah. I don't know-

Wendy: 19:21

if If it ever actually does

Wendy: 19:23

not it does feel awful pretty much

Dave: 19:25

Pretty much all the time because you're in that growth. It's like so intense.

Wendy: 19:29

Because you're bumping up against what's getting in the way of you.

Dave: 19:32

Gotta let that go and that generally doesn't feel good.

Wendy: 19:36

No, it doesn't.

Dave: 19:36

It doesn't. Because it's usually

Wendy: 19:37

I don't want it.

Dave: 19:38

Childhood trauma or past life trauma or the programming, the ego's screaming at you. No. No. No.

Wendy: 19:44

This really identity. It's Mhmm. It you're bumping up against, well, if the this is who I am. Yep. And then the spiritual experiences challenge that.

Dave: 19:54

Yep.

Wendy: 19:54

Or wanna reinvent it.

Dave: 19:56

Yeah. It's just like with me with Ella's passing, worth and passing. Like, part of I realized when I look back is I was I was one of those healers that was like all to nothing. You know, sacrifice yourself for everything, you know, and give give it your all. And but I recognize I'm not supposed to heal everything.

Dave: 20:15

It's not my responsibility to heal everything. Because sometimes if we heal something from somebody, they may have taken away their opportunity to learn and grow.

Wendy: 20:25

That's a great point.

Dave: 20:26

You know? So it's like that's why like, the discernment is really important to be able to read and see. Mhmm. A a really good example is, with my wife. She I'm not supposed to be healing my wife.

Dave: 20:37

She has to she's finding her own path. And when I started this stuff, Clairvoyant Training early on, I was like, oh, come on. You gotta do it. Know, was so excited about it. And I was like, you gotta look at the pictures and the limits.

Dave: 20:47

Oh, she was she didn't like that at all. You know? And so I realized early on, oh, I have to let her have her path.

Wendy: 20:53

It's like waiting for the invitation to

Dave: 20:56

Yeah.

Dave: 20:56

That's why I like when people who schedule readings, that's the invitation. They want what I have to offer.

Wendy: 21:01

Exactly.

Dave: 21:01

Instead of me trying

Wendy: 21:02

soliciting it. Yeah.

Dave: 21:03

Yeah. Yeah. Instead of, like, trying to give it to somebody who doesn't want it, which is then where generally we get pummeled.

Wendy: 21:09

And then you're bumping up against an ethical dilemma

Dave: 21:12

Mhmm.

Wendy: 21:13

Where you're offering something that's not being

Dave: 21:16

Exactly.

Wendy: 21:16

Requested.

Dave: 21:17

Yep.

Wendy: 21:17

And someone's obviously not ready for it because otherwise they'd be requesting

Dave: 21:21

That lesson's tough. That lesson for like in family dynamics is really tough when you can like For me with my brothers in addiction, I have a brother who died of a heroin overdose and you just see them going down that track.

Wendy: 21:35

You know where it's gonna go.

Dave: 21:36

Yeah. In the beginning, was like, come on. I take my brother hiking all the time. We go on these week long trips to national parks and turned into be like a detox tour each time and then he go right back to it, you know? And eventually, I realized, ah, I can't heal him.

Dave: 21:51

I'm not supposed to.

Wendy: 21:51

It's heartbreaking.

Dave: 21:52

Yeah. So it's a tough lesson. But it's like even on that level, you're giving them something, the healing that they don't want. They're not ready for it. So it actually exasperates their pain that's led them to the addiction.

Dave: 22:05

So it it highlights it because all that healing energy is going and poking them. And they're saying, no. I don't wanna no.

Wendy: 22:12

No. That's a really great thing because that that's probably one that I imagine you get this too. I get a lot of, you know, so and so could use this. Healing session of getting in the harmonic egg. You know who could use this?

Wendy: 22:26

My husband. You know who could use this? My daughter.

Dave: 22:30

Mhmm.

Wendy: 22:31

And they're not

Dave: 22:33

No. Now. They won't they won't show up. I almost like, sometimes when people pay for readings for others, it comes from that space sometimes. Yeah.

Dave: 22:42

Exactly. Just of times, if that person's not ready, they won't even be able to make it to the prepaid reading Mhmm. Which is which is very interesting. So but that's the dynamic. They're just not ready for it.

Dave: 22:53

And when they're ready, then, oh, yeah, they'll jump right in. Right. They won't have any problem with it. But so that that's a that was a hard lesson. And then, of course, to have all your past life martyr pictures and all these, you know, savior pictures and things like that that we've thought when we're programmed to believe, oh, this we're supposed to sacrifice ourself.

Dave: 23:12

But

Wendy: 23:13

yeah. That's a very Christian Concept. Right?

Dave: 23:16

It is.

Wendy: 23:16

And culturally, a lot of us Yeah. Are embedded in that.

Dave: 23:21

Yeah. Yep. Yeah. What I realized by reading a lot of people that either were at Jesus' crucifixion or around that time is and this might be controversial, but Jesus, from my perspective, didn't suffer. He didn't experience any pain.

Dave: 23:37

He was enlightened. And he was showing us to not be nailed to the cross of the body, but to be eternal spirit, which is our true nature. But most of us got stuck on what we were observing and looking and thinking, oh, no. He's suffering. So we gotta suffer like him.

Dave: 23:54

But it doesn't

Wendy: 23:55

Well, it's interesting, yeah, how how we can interpret based on our own beliefs Mhmm. And experience

Dave: 24:04

Yep.

Wendy: 24:05

And we can get it wrong.

Dave: 24:06

Yeah. Especially at a different level of consciousness compared to like an enlightened being versus us as a non enlightened being.

Wendy: 24:14

Well, yeah. How can you have an enlightened perspective from an unenlightened place Yeah. Which is where I sit.

Dave: 24:20

Yep. Me too. We're learning slowly but surely.

Wendy: 24:25

Yep. I have the t shirt to prove it.

Dave: 24:28

Yeah. That's great.

Wendy: 24:33

Yep. So you've done a bunch of training. Mhmm. And so now you're doing readings for folks Mhmm. Long distance.

Dave: 24:42

Mhmm.

Wendy: 24:43

I'd love to talk a little bit about how you perceive when you're doing a reading. How would you describe that?

Dave: 24:48

Great. So I'm in a, what you call, meditative or trance space. So I do all the readings with my eyes closed, and I have a whole kind of, like, setup to find my space and be centered in the center of my head, which is where the sixth chakra is, and that's our clairvoyant. So and then from there, like, when somebody starts it's I start to look at them spirit to spirit. You know?

Dave: 25:09

And so I start to that's like a spirit to spirit hello. It's a type of communication. And as they're talking about whatever question they have that they want me to look at, it's just things start to light up in different areas. I'll see some bright colors, you know, which is their positive energy and what they're looking to embody more to make different decisions or to move forward in their life in whatever area. But then at the same time, I'll start to see areas that have stuckness to them.

Dave: 25:40

There's no movement in the energy field. It's just kind of like a stuck, and that can look a lot of different ways. So sometimes in the aura, you'll see a swath of energy that over here, it's moving, but over here, it's just frozen. And what as they're talking, what I'm looking at is what within them has created this experience? And that starts to light up the kind of and generally, it's not just one area.

Dave: 26:05

It's usually an energetic structure that can go across many chakras and different layers of the aura and stuff. It's generally not just like one place. But there are core anchoring points to the energetic structure that might show up in like yesterday, I've read a woman who has sleep apnea, and we we looked at what was going on energetically, and you'd be surprised what goes on energetically in relation to sleep apnea. It almost has nothing to do with the physical. It's always the physical manifestations are caused by spirit making decisions over long periods of time.

Dave: 26:39

So patterns of behavior then lead to the physical expression of whatever disease it is. So to heal the physical, generally, you have to look at the pattern of decisions that have been made that at the time they didn't realize would lead to that, but it it has led to that. So when someone's looking at that, we look and so we did a healing, and she told me, yes, she has a watch that monitors it. So it's gotten better. Like, she's not waking up as much.

Dave: 27:04

So that was pretty cool. You know? That doesn't always happen, but that was one of the like, a validating experience. So then I would start to look at, okay, the mid core of it and then move from that area, and we read that. So if it's a four chakra thing, we start reading at that.

Dave: 27:19

It has to do with affinity and experience of oneness with and where we're out of affinity, and it's very specific to the person. And so that could highlight childhood stuff or it could highlight relationship with mom, dad, whatever.

Wendy: 27:31

How are you getting this information though? So you're seeing it as as colors, so energetics in the person's biofield.

Dave: 27:39

Yep.

Wendy: 27:40

And then you're interpreting it based on the map of the chakras and then Or are you getting information?

Dave: 27:47

I'm getting information. So it's like reading a book.

Wendy: 27:50

Okay.

Dave: 27:51

So all the colors and all the hardness has information in it.

Wendy: 27:55

Okay.

Dave: 27:55

And it that part comes from your knowing the crown chakra. So you see, but then you know what you're seeing. So there's no this is the training part is to get out of that intellectual part you're talking about. It needs to, like, figure everything out. That invalidates spirit because you're no longer having the experience of spirit.

Dave: 28:13

Now you're thinking about it, and you know inadvertently invalidate it. So if I saw something and tried to figure it out, I'm not seeing anymore. Mhmm. It goes away. It it literally goes black, and I won't see.

Dave: 28:25

So it it's kinda have to get out of your own way and just let it come in. That's more of a very receptive experience, and then you I just translate as best I can into words back to them. So sometimes that that can falter a little because what I see sometimes can be a little bit challenging to describe, and the words might not line up accurately because words are just symbols to point towards a a truth, but they're not actually the truth. So it just it's it's a process. It just so those colors have information, and then as you as I look at them, then the meaning, the the

Wendy: 29:00

The knowing?

Dave: 29:01

The knowing comes in. Mhmm. And then that's what I share to them. And then they'll, oh, yeah. I did have that experience.

Dave: 29:07

Or, you know, they'll they'll generally resonate with it in some way.

Wendy: 29:12

Okay.

Dave: 29:12

And then that starts to then they're when they start to resonate like that, then the part of them is stuck in that illusion. I see their light starting to come out.

Wendy: 29:22

And then Because awareness is brought to it.

Dave: 29:24

Awareness the light of awareness is brought to it. So the light of my awareness is saying the light of their awareness that's stuck Okay. And not aware that it's stuck. And then it starts to come out and get unstuck. So it's back to this is the only way readings work and spiritual work.

Dave: 29:38

We have to be one. If we're not one spirit, it wouldn't work. If we were truly separate, you wouldn't be able to give a reading. So the light that's in them is the light that's in me. It's the same light.

Dave: 29:49

Mhmm. It's just I'm seeing I'm coming from, let's say, an unstuck place. But at the same time, if I see something in them, I'm gonna have my own stuckness coming up and out of me. So it's a healing going both ways. It's not just a one way thing.

Dave: 30:05

So I get if I can see something in you, you spot it, you got it, and I know something in me is also coming out. So I get a healing at the same time. And that's how it kinda works as I'm letting go of my limits that are showing up because I'm looking at what they're stuck in. It creates space for them to let that go too, and then we both win win. It's a very freeing experience all around.

Wendy: 30:30

Beautiful. And so do you find like, how does this end up working for your your clients? Like, it's probably not instantaneous. Right?

Dave: 30:40

Mhmm. It sometimes it can be.

Wendy: 30:41

They can be.

Dave: 30:42

Okay. Like, with the sleep apnea example, that person was primed and and ready for the reading and boom, then the sleep apnea, like, got better within well, 50 or 60% better, like, immediately. Lots of times, it's working the energy. It's chipping away at it because, generally, certain things have been a pattern for someone's whole life, and that's not generally gonna go in one fell swoop.

Wendy: 31:08

That's what I had encountered in my own practice is that the pull of the unconscious is so strong

Dave: 31:14

Mhmm.

Wendy: 31:14

That it requires work to kind of work with the Once you recognize what the pattern is, then you can start working with it. But most of us don't know what the pattern is, to begin with. It sounds like what you're doing is helping them to Yeah, it's get to the past. It. Yeah.

Dave: 31:31

Mhmm. And the energy dynamics and the decisions or the programming that came in unconsciously, and that all starts to change. And then it does take time to integrate. So I I don't recommend doing too many readings. You know?

Dave: 31:43

It's usually, like, sometimes once a month, but mainly you get a reading and then, you know, two to three months out is a good time for

Wendy: 31:50

Work with it.

Dave: 31:50

Yeah. To integrate and start living in the new energy and start to recognize, oh, something shifted and I'm not as reactive in this area of my life as I may have been in the past. And I have a little more neutrality. So then then a couple months down the line, maybe the next level is ready to be addressed. So it's like peeling an onion Yeah.

Dave: 32:10

You know, the next layer of

Wendy: 32:11

perfect sense. I mean, sounds like we both have similar ways of approaching that too. Not doing a lot of working with what you have and then when you're ready for the next deep dive, then you come back.

Dave: 32:25

That's right. Yep.

Wendy: 32:27

Because you can distract yourself by doing too much. You can lose the richness of the first session if you go into the second session and then follow it with a third session in quick succession. And then you're like all of that rich information is just

Dave: 32:43

Yeah. You'll be in such a growth period. Generally, it'll be the personal experience it from my experience as a very like, it's not working anymore because they'll they'll Too much. It's too much. Overwhelming.

Dave: 32:54

Yeah. It's overwhelming and the growth from that can be very on the physical level, very uncomfortable. Mhmm. You know? So it's like finding that sweet spot of, the Goldilocks principle just enough.

Dave: 33:06

Yeah. So just hit that spot each time. And of course that's that takes a lot of practice. That's not easy to do. Know?

Wendy: 33:12

But I understand the motivation behind wanting to move through it. Like once you decide you wanna heal, it's like I wanna get it all done Yeah. Right on. Yesterday.

Dave: 33:19

Yeah. And generally fear drives that. They wanna get rid of it. And so that's the type of resistance that will actually impede them from letting it go, you know, because they I I and that's the way I was. I was all or nothing.

Dave: 33:33

And my teachers had to regularly slow me down because I was just I got it. But that's coming from that space of I'm not enough. I gotta be better. You know? And what I've learned is self realization or the discovery of the self is not a destination.

Dave: 33:49

It's a discovery of who you've already always have been but forgot.

Wendy: 33:53

So it's like an unfolding?

Dave: 33:55

It's an unfolding. Like, when we experience spiritual growth, it that's a little bit of a misnomer, but we'll experience it that way if we have, let's say, like, a we have an awareness of where we are, and then now we have a greater awareness. So we experience it as if we're growing. But, really, when we have that greater awareness, we've just uncovered the limits that did not give us access to that awareness in the first place. It's always been there.

Dave: 34:18

It's just we weren't aware of it because of the limits that we put our energy into and believed in. So it's like it's always there. We always have access to it all the time, but we're not aware of it. So then when we become aware, we experience ourselves as growing, but it's been there the whole time. So we just Another good point.

Dave: 34:37

Yeah. Exactly. Who we are. And Yeah. That's that's tricky when most of us get programmed to believe we're a body.

Dave: 34:43

Like, when I was young, I got programmed to believe I'm an athlete. I'm a basketball player, and I wanted to play professional basketball. And I wanted to play division one. I ended up playing division three and I'm I'm in the hall of fame and I'm all time leading scorer and and and all time assist and things like that. So I That's cool.

Dave: 34:58

Yeah. Yeah. I can look back and say

Wendy: 34:59

But that's not who you are.

Dave: 35:00

No. It's not who I am. But we all have Fully. Right. Right.

Dave: 35:03

I was partly that. Yep. Put a lot of my creative energy into that but it was very limiting. And as you expand, it's just become from my experience, it just becomes more and more amazing. Like, reality is like, stranger than fiction.

Wendy: 35:19

Well, well, let me tell you. Yes. It's complicated, isn't it? It is. It's not this material

Dave: 35:26

Mm-mm.

Wendy: 35:27

Physical realm. Nope. It's much more than that.

Wendy: 35:30

It's a part of it.

Dave: 35:32

Mhmm.

Wendy: 35:33

But yeah. And it gets really exciting when you start exploring the vastness and the all the possibilities that exist within reality. Especially during this particular time on planet Earth where it's a bit challenging.

Dave: 35:46

It's I would say a little bit bitter, bitter of a challenge. Yeah. I've been given some readings, you know, it takes a lot of courage to incarnate during this period, especially as a healer and someone who's focused on more spiritual growth like you. It it can be it takes a lot of courage to be here in this because it's a massive change in shift, but the old is gonna fight and wanna hold on for dear life.

Wendy: 36:11

So White knuckles.

Dave: 36:12

Yeah. It's gonna it's gonna look probably pretty ugly for a while before it gets better, but the the old has to fall apart. That's what's gonna look ugly so that the new can be rebuilt. But there needs to be healers present for that so that it doesn't get too ugly.

Wendy: 36:29

That kinda help with the process?

Dave: 36:30

Yeah. They help move it along.

Wendy: 36:34

I'd be curious now that we've kinda opened this door a little bit. Do you have a perception of what we're actually experiencing at this time on planet Earth?

Dave: 36:42

Well, from my experience, it's just a growth towards and people use the term age of Aquarius or things like that. But it's just a movement it's movement towards more enlightenment is a global experience. And even, like, with the Internet and stuff, one thing that's it's distracting on one level, meaning you don't know what's true. Lots of times.

Wendy: 37:08

I hadn't noticed.

Dave: 37:09

Yeah. So you have to use your discernment.

Wendy: 37:11

It's what

Wendy: 37:12

I wrote a book about.

Dave: 37:12

Did you? Yeah. But there's access to information too to recognize that it's not true also. So they can't like in old you know, in monarchy systems and things way back, it was, like, blindly believed. The pope says this.

Dave: 37:27

Everyone's gotta do it. The king says that. It's everyone's gotta do it. And we were very much powerless and a victim. And now at least there's a lot of questioning.

Dave: 37:35

There's a lot of and some of it's of course, that brings out a lot of anger in people.

Wendy: 37:40

But A little bit.

Dave: 37:41

We're moving towards that age of enlightenment and a type of reawakening of our Atlantean consciousness. That one of the tragedies of that was that we lost that awareness and went kinda underground. So all this conquer and divide energy that's out there is very similar to what divided Atlantis way back when it's very sly. You know? It's it's I always like to describe it as like water in a crack, you know, and it just keeps going in, and that crack gets bigger, bigger, and bigger.

Dave: 38:11

And by the time we come where it's a crack, you know, the whole part of that building has fallen off. You know? And that's the nature of this conquering divide. It's it's like a liquidy black that gets in there and splits everybody. You know?

Dave: 38:24

And and so when we have to make new decisions, how to relate to that black, how to relate to that conquer and divide, and not make the same decisions we've made in the past that will lead to same outcomes. So we have to it's very active process of creating the light and being here in the world, but not of the world. And whatever we, quote, do in the world, as long as we're shining our light and we're being ourselves, that will start to create a field that everyone can tune into more and more. And then eventually, there'll be enough that are tuned into that, and then the darkness won't have any power anymore because enough people have gotten out of it and knew know how to relate to it, recognize it's not really real. Our resistance to it is what makes it real to us.

Dave: 39:11

So we can't fight. Right? Because if we're fighting them, then we've become them. They're the ones fighting us. So it's a tricky thing.

Wendy: 39:20

It is. It's a it is very tricky on so many levels. Yeah. And I it seems like it's what you're also helping people to do is helping them to see that reality is much more than what you just described.

Dave: 39:34

Exactly. It

Wendy: 39:36

sort of opens things up, at least from my perspective. I come from that more indigenous philosophy where I really am drawn to the idea that this is the dream. This physical reality is the dream. That Truly another part of us is dreaming into existence. Collectively, we're all dreaming this into existence.

Wendy: 39:55

Mhmm. And that helps give me, whether it's true or not, helps give me a little a little distance from from some of the the nonsense that we humans can engage

Dave: 40:08

And in create.

Wendy: 40:09

And the harm.

Dave: 40:11

It's amazing. Right? It's because we could also do the opposite. Right? We could create all the love too, but our those egos are and that divide divisive energy is tough.

Dave: 40:22

And so, like, part of what I help people realize is that they're the cause and creator of their experience, and they can change that. They might not know how, and they might not recognize it. But when you're able to get to the unconsciousness and let it go, the way you relate to something changes. And I always like to use a quote by Rumi, and I'm paraphrasing. But he said something along the lines of, when I was young, I tried to change the world.

Dave: 40:46

Now that I'm wise, I changed myself. And by changing yourself, the world changes. It truly does. But we get programmed to blame. Oh, you did this to me.

Dave: 40:55

You bastard. Yeah. And then we're stuck.

Wendy: 40:58

Yeah. But we're in the victim mentality.

Dave: 41:00

That's right. Which is

Wendy: 41:01

a very powerless position to be in. Yeah. But I'd like to suggest it's optional.

Dave: 41:07

Mhmm. Yeah. That's a great way to put it. It's definitely a choice. It's definitely optional.

Dave: 41:13

But it takes a long time to realize that. Right? It's not at least for me, it did. It took a really long time with lots of classes. Like, I I probably took between thirty and fifty classes a year and did retreats two to four times a year for about ten years.

Dave: 41:28

You know, I was really devoted. I put like I said, like, all or nothing. Yeah. I've learned I've learned to slow down a a lot since then. But but yeah.

Dave: 41:38

And and and practicing every day, you know, and really starting to see. And and as you start to see, you start wow. It's not that you you start to recognize, oh, there's more. Okay. Let's keep going.

Dave: 41:49

You know? But it it all that practice takes a long time to, like, break free of the programming and training that happens in this world with the physical and all the blame and shame and control and power and all that stuff. You know, it's it's tough.

Wendy: 42:07

Yeah. It's a tough gig.

Dave: 42:09

It is. And I I don't see it in my lifetime getting to the to the age of Aquarius. That's why I always encourage people that someone has to begin the process.

Wendy: 42:20

Well, here's a here's a thought. I just had this in a kind of a visionary experience this last weekend of are we are we planting seeds for our future selves?

Dave: 42:30

Mhmm. I would agree a 100% with that. I would. That's that's a great way to put it. Yep.

Dave: 42:39

So then we can show up then and

Wendy: 42:41

Yeah. Like, what what what kinda world do you wanna create for your future self? Or all the future selves? Even though there's no time really.

Dave: 42:49

Right.

Wendy: 42:50

Which is a weird thing to wrap your head around and I don't think I can quite do it.

Dave: 42:54

Yeah, because it can only happen in the present, right?

Wendy: 42:56

Yeah. But we have this experience of that feels very much like linear time where there's a past and there's a present and there's a future at least to our brain parts.

Dave: 43:06

Yep.

Wendy: 43:06

And so the thought that we are living many identities simultaneously is bleh.

Dave: 43:13

Yeah, the intellect can't comprehend Too much, too much. You can't figure that one out. You'll spin your head in circles and your brain will be mush.

Wendy: 43:24

So before I shift gears, is there anything more you want to add about your reading practice?

Dave: 43:31

It's really geared towards the spirit to spirit hello and looking at the energy and reading it. And from that, lots of things shift and change. And and it's more about having the experience of it. You know? It's hard to talk about because the experience of it's so much more than what you can speak about with it.

Dave: 43:50

But

Wendy: 43:50

I could imagine.

Dave: 43:51

Yeah. Yeah. But it's Yeah.

Wendy: 43:53

I'm intrigued.

Dave: 43:53

Yeah.

Wendy: 43:54

It's very cool what you're doing. Yeah. So how about training? Do you train people how to become clairvoyant?

Dave: 44:00

When I teach the same way I was taught, so I I basically what has worked for me is what I teach, you know, and and from my direct experience of what is work. If I haven't seen something myself, clairvoyantly, it doesn't mean it's not there. I I just don't teach that because I don't have that awareness level yet to be able to teach that. Like, I wouldn't teach channeling a being through your body even though I know it exists and I know it can be done, but I don't I don't

Wendy: 44:25

Yeah.

Wendy: 44:25

That wouldn't make sense when you

Wendy: 44:26

to teach something that you don't know how to teach.

Dave: 44:28

I know. Yeah. Terms of the clairvoyant. So basically, the way I teach is to empower people to start to see for themselves and trust themselves. So it's not a It's a tough one.

Dave: 44:39

It is. It's really tough because lots of times people come and and they have the old teacher has the answers, student need learns from teacher. Or if they have some strong past lives, they could have a guru type of relationship. And even a guru means teacher, it's gotten really distorted.

Wendy: 44:55

It's pretty loaded.

Dave: 44:56

Yeah. It's pretty loaded. So I'm very clear about don't just blindly believe what I say. Take a look for yourself and see. Do are you seeing what I'm talking about?

Dave: 45:07

Are you seeing something different? Are you seeing something more? And first step, validate what you see. And then from there, it'll expand and grow and grow. Because in clairvoyance, it's what you see and more, generally.

Dave: 45:20

It's not going to just end with one looking at it, and that's the end all, be all. It's like it's a process of discovery and unfolding.

Wendy: 45:28

Right. I was just thinking about the importance of discernment.

Dave: 45:32

Mhmm.

Wendy: 45:32

Like, learning to discern the difference between kind of your wishful thinking

Dave: 45:37

Mhmm.

Wendy: 45:38

When your mind kicks in, when you're trying to do a reading Mhmm. Or trying to read this level that you're working at, it sounds like the more energetic level. Mhmm. Yeah. Versus what you're truly perceiving versus what you would like to perceive.

Dave: 45:51

Yeah. Expectations get in there and they can cloud it. So that's a that's a process of developing one's neutrality and being able to be in the center of the head and just observe and then relay what you observe and let it be as it is without and that's where our matching pictures will come up and can kind of cloud sometimes. And, you know, no one that I know is a perfect reader. You know?

Dave: 46:14

We're all learning and growing. And we we see. And the more neutral you are, then the more you clearly you will see. Mhmm. And neutrality, when I talk about that, I don't mean it's inaction or complacency.

Dave: 46:25

It's action from a state of inner peace. It's very active. It's an active thing. So the classes, I have, like, a scope and sequence that I've created, and I run it, like, on a university schedule, so September to May. I have a level one, level two, and those are level ones, the foundation techniques and tools to help us manage energy in the world, to still the mind enough like we were talking about earlier.

Dave: 46:47

And that includes things like grounding and bringing in gold suns, earthen cosmic energy meditation, which is like a psychic car wash. This emphasis on the center of the head and really creating that sanctuary space for you there. And then we start looking at other other techniques to be able to be in the world more as ourselves and not at the effect of all that energy that's there all the time. And then in the second level, we start looking at meeting our healing master, which is a guide we can work with. We start continuing to blow pictures or the limits.

Dave: 47:17

We go into that a little more detail. We also start to look at space and setting energy space, creating space for ourselves in this world, then there's more to that. But those are like the beginning techniques. And in that first series, we use that in every single class in the beginning opening meditation all the way through the advanced level. So that's how important they are from my perspective to to curate and develop that neutrality.

Dave: 47:42

So then if people wanna continue, then I have a read and heal your aura, read and heal your chakra class, and that starts to look at go again, continuing to clear the space for you to be able to see clearly and start to read the aura. It's very, simple at that level because we're just looking at an energy that's not ours, a bright energy that is ours. We're starting to learn about ourselves as spirit, as energy. And then if people wanna continue, they can do the Clairvoyant training program, which is a nine month program to two classes a month. And then if they wanna continue, I have the advanced program after this.

Wendy: 48:13

Oh, I thought you already were talking about the Clairvoyant Training Program.

Dave: 48:16

Ah, so it's a process to build them towards that.

Wendy: 48:19

Okay. So what people are usually drawn to the first introductory

Dave: 48:24

Yeah. Training? I have that as prerequisites. The level one, level two, they're the prerequisites for all the other classes.

Wendy: 48:30

Okay.

Dave: 48:30

Because they're the foundational techniques No.

Wendy: 48:32

It makes sense.

Dave: 48:33

Yeah. It's about vocabulary and kinda understanding all that stuff, getting on the same page with that. So everyone are required to take that. And then from there, they can decide if they wanna continue on. And it's open door policy.

Dave: 48:44

It's nothing I don't you know, if they wanna come, they come.

Wendy: 48:47

Don't have to give a kidney.

Dave: 48:48

Yeah. No. Yeah. Okay. Yeah.

Wendy: 48:51

Are most of your students interested in doing what you're doing and that is offering reading or are they doing it more for themselves?

Dave: 48:58

Yeah. Generally, they're doing it more for themselves, but some clairvoyants and being able to discern is very helpful in any field. In in the trainings I did with Michael Tamora and with Gwyneth and Gail, all of them were professionals at some level, business and and finance and lots of different levels. And then also some were readers and some were energy workers or cranial sacral therapists or Reiki or things like that, and massage yoga or whatever. But generally, they it's helping them to become a trust themselves, trust their intuition so that in their life, if something's going off, it's not seemingly like it should be doing.

Dave: 49:37

They can sit down and look and see what's going on.

Wendy: 49:39

Yeah. Very helpful.

Dave: 49:40

Yeah. And then make those new decisions and let go of any limits and start to look at the new creative energy going forward So then they'll know how to respond or create something new in that area of their life instead of reliving the same old pattern over and over again. And then it like, some work with animals, and it helps them with their communication with the animals and things like that. But it's a really variety

Wendy: 50:07

It's very versatile.

Dave: 50:08

Versatile, but I I found it's very effective for everybody. Not everyone that does this stuff will be a clairvoyant reader. Some will, but generally, they come for lots and lots of different reasons. But the main is they just wanna have access to their intuition and be guided by that versus at the whim of what the world is is doing or whatever.

Wendy: 50:29

You're in a pinball machine.

Dave: 50:30

Yeah. Ding ding ding. Yeah. Yeah. So I'm gonna go here.

Dave: 50:34

Here. Yeah. Instead. Yep.

Wendy: 50:37

Yeah.

Dave: 50:38

Yeah. Sorry. Come from all over and and it's it in it takes time. That's one of the things I think we can struggle with because we wanna sometimes people think, oh, if I'm Clairvoyant, I'll just I have it, you know, and it from my experience, it just doesn't work that way. It takes a lot of devotion, a lot of practice, a lot of Yeah.

Dave: 50:57

It really does. And you have to practice it all the time. And the world is so distracting. It's hard to have it on a 100% of the time. You know?

Dave: 51:07

Very true. Because we get caught up in the

Wendy: 51:09

All that noise.

Dave: 51:10

All that noise.

Wendy: 51:10

It's Yeah.

Dave: 51:11

It's tough. So we always start in in a very safe setting. It's all over the phone, but as a energetic sanctuary where we're all having it and everyone's in agreement. So we learn there in a very quiet, safe space. But, eventually, we all have to learn how to take it from there and apply it in the physical and have it all the time.

Dave: 51:32

That's a whole another ball of wax, though, in terms of trust and and being able to access that in the midst of all the chaos. You know? But it does work over time.

Wendy: 51:42

Yeah.

Dave: 51:42

You get access to it more and more even in the midst of chaos. Like, I'll I'll give a quick example because it was another version of me going through the death portal. But this time, you know, probably know Bolton Potholes, the the swimming hole here in Vermont. A kid had jumped into a pool and didn't come out. And I was down below with my son, and we were

Wendy: 52:04

Oh, you were there?

Dave: 52:04

I was there. We were And this guy, out of nowhere, comes down. And why did they choose me? Out of all the people, it was July 4, like, three years ago. And he comes down.

Dave: 52:15

Hey. This guy went and fell into this went into the scene, and he hadn't come up yet. And I so right away, I started looking clairvoyantly to see if I could help help him. And within, like, I don't less I don't know how long it was because I don't know the duration. But next thing you know, he came out of the hole and was and so I I go up and, like, a guy jumps in, brings me over, and we pull him up onto the ledge and start doing CPR.

Dave: 52:41

And a friend of mine who was there was an ER doctor down here in in Barrie. And How fortuitous. Yeah. Yep. And so we start, but then he's doing the physical, and I'm looking in spirit to see where is the soul that was incarnated.

Dave: 52:57

And I recognize right away, he's not coming back. Like, you could tell. He's way far away from his body. So then I'm aware of that and starting to hold the space. I started to see how everyone who couldn't wasn't supposed to participate leaves.

Dave: 53:14

It's everyone leaves. Every everyone who was screaming and yelling and stuff, everyone goes, and there's, like, 15 of us just there. And it's completely still from my experience of it. And everyone's just, like, 15 compressions. The next person comes in, 15 compressions.

Dave: 53:31

Wow. And it just, like, brought these people together for this experience to help this kid who was a 22 21 year old kid from Saint Mike's University. And I noticed this all we're just undoing this karma for this kid. And it was just an amazing experience. Although for the family and everyone else and most of the people there, it was a tragedy.

Dave: 53:50

But from my experience, it was a healing, like, an unbelievable healing to a group of people where in an adverse situation, everyone came together, communicated, worked together, did the best they could. And, of course, it was July 4 in Vermont, so the paramedics didn't get there for a long time.

Wendy: 54:08

Right.

Dave: 54:08

Because they they're all volunteer. So but it was it was just as still as it was when Ella died. Wow. It was the same experience except it was really, really powerful. And so that's a type of experience we can have, but most of us are so programmed to fear death and no one talks about death and dying.

Dave: 54:30

If you don't,

Wendy: 54:31

yeah.

Dave: 54:31

If you have that certainty in spirit, you can have that experience. And I think that there's probably a lot of people who've had it when they've been around people who have transitioned. There's something really of course, there's the really sad part about it, but there's also something very, very comforting and magical about it if you allow yourself to experience that side too. So from my experience, you have both sides. You have the tragedy and the bliss.

Wendy: 54:59

Well, that sounds like life, though that

Dave: 55:01

Oh, yeah.

Wendy: 55:02

If we look at everything through that lens, that everything has that. I mean

Dave: 55:06

Exactly. I didn't ever made that connection, but that's that's exactly it. Everything had there's always the flip side of the coin. That's the growth.

Wendy: 55:14

Depending on what you're focusing on. Yep. And and if you can focus on all of it, the full full spectrum of experience, it seems like that would be ideal.

Dave: 55:21

Yeah. Exactly. You have it all.

Wendy: 55:23

The human experience and the spiritual experience.

Dave: 55:26

Yep. Exactly. Because we have to be here. We're incarnated. You know?

Dave: 55:31

We're here. So we might as well have being here. Yeah. You know?

Wendy: 55:35

And do our best to enjoy ourselves through the process.

Dave: 55:38

Yeah. I have it's it's saying it. It's like, have it all attached to nothing. You can have everything and attach to nothing so that if it goes, it goes, but you still can have it. It doesn't...

Wendy: 55:49

That's tricky.

Dave: 55:50

technically go. Yeah. It's tricky.

Wendy: 55:52

I'm working on that one.

Dave: 55:54

But yeah. It's just like you say, enjoy. We're here. We're human.

Wendy: 55:58

And if it is a dream, I mean, even if that's, again, not real, but if it is a dream, then that gives you

Dave: 56:06

Yeah.

Wendy: 56:06

It's like, how do I wanna

Dave: 56:08

Might as well create it the way you want it to be.

Wendy: 56:09

And if I can be lucid in my dream

Dave: 56:11

Mhmm.

Wendy: 56:12

While I'm here as a human. Yeah. Why? What can I what do I wanna create? Yep.

Wendy: 56:18

What do I what do I wanna how do I wanna be in this dream?

Dave: 56:21

That's right. Yeah. It's like any dream we have in the physical too is that when we wake up, we recognize it's a dream. Yeah. It's dream.

Dave: 56:28

Once we wake up, we'll recognize that all this was a

Wendy: 56:30

dream. Precisely.

Dave: 56:31

But while we're in the dream, we can't be aware necessarily of that. So

Wendy: 56:35

But Yeah. You can.

Dave: 56:37

You can.

Wendy: 56:37

You can learn to. That's why I love the word lucid so much. I mean, it's the name of the

Dave: 56:40

That's right.

Wendy: 56:41

It's the name of my business.

Dave: 56:43

That's right. That is great. Yep. Lucid. Might as well learn how to create it

Wendy: 56:49

in the street. Yeah. Lucid while you're alive.

Dave: 56:52

Yep.

Wendy: 56:53

Yeah. How about that?

Dave: 56:54

Yeah.

Wendy: 56:57

That's great. Oh, this has been fun, Dave. So Yeah. How do folks get ahold of you if they wanna learn more about your work, get a reading, train with you?

Dave: 57:05

Yeah. The easiest way is to visit my website, which is ww.divineroots.love, and everything's on there. The you can schedule a reading on there now for sixty and ninety minute options. And then the classes are on there, which have started live already. The level one starts Monday, but they're they'll be beginning.

Dave: 57:24

And but people can also purchase the recordings of previously taught classes if they'd like to self do a self study.

Wendy: 57:31

Oh, okay.

Dave: 57:31

And then I'm always available to answer questions and kinda guide if

Wendy: 57:34

they go down that road.

Dave: 57:36

Generally, that that road is little bit tougher because in spirit, of course, there's no time, no space. So the energy is set. They're gonna get the same amount of healing and information, but there's no, like, time structure to hold them accountable. So you really have to be like a go getter to do it that way.

Wendy: 57:55

Downside of a self paced online course.

Dave: 57:58

Yep. Yep. It it it tends to be harder to be committed to for whatever reason. But some people do it, but I would recommend the live, to be honest. But they can do it that way if they, like, miss the beginning of it because I'm only I'm only one teacher.

Dave: 58:10

I have a son, and so I only could teach so much. So I teach the level one, level two in the fall, reading heliore, reading your chakras in the spring. And then the clairvoyant training program goes from the fall to the spring, and the advanced program goes from that. And then I take the summer off, and then we start again.

Wendy: 58:25

Gotcha. So we are recording this in what month is this? September. September. September.

Wendy: 58:31

Yeah. I'm sorry. Time. It's getting weirder and weirder. It sure is.

Wendy: 58:37

Yeah. So it's September 2025. And by the time this is out, there's a good chance they could sign up for the the next fall.

Dave: 58:48

Next fall. Okay. Yeah. Great. Yeah.

Dave: 58:49

Because it'll run every fall. I just keep the new people that come in, we start, and then take them through. And then those that wanna continue, continue. And then the advanced program just is kind of tailored each year to the group and the topics and information we study kind of just look and see what would be best to address and because there's never a shortage of information. I can imagine.

Dave: 59:10

Yeah.

Wendy: 59:11

So I'm sure that's always always building too.

Dave: 59:14

It is. And it's helping them continue to look for themselves and see for themselves. So, again, it's not like a q and a type of experience. It's you look and trust yourself, and then we share out what we see, but there is no, like, right or wrong answer. And that's what we have to deprogram ourselves from so that we trust what we see and we make decisions based off of that versus having this dichotomy of there having to be a right way and a wrong way.

Dave: 59:39

Yes.

Wendy: 59:40

Yes. As long as you do it right.

Dave: 59:42

That's right.

Wendy: 59:43

That's So that's, yeah, that sounds like a really, I mean, I like that approach very much where it's like how do you learn how to become your own teacher? Yes. Exactly. Right?

Dave: 59:57

That's right.

Wendy: 59:58

Yeah.

Dave: 59:58

Yep.

Wendy: 59:59

But we all need some assistance to get there.

Dave: 01:00:01

I don't know how on earth I would have been able to discover, would have discovered without some guidance.

Wendy: 01:00:06

Well, we're, I mean, we're not set up in our culture

Dave: 01:00:11

Yeah. That's true.

Wendy: 01:00:12

To kind of make sense of extraordinary otherworldly experiences. There's no context for it other than, like, maybe through the psychological lens of you're you're delusional or you're Right. You're you're losing your shit.

Dave: 01:00:28

Yep.

Wendy: 01:00:28

So that's not a really positive spin on those things.

Dave: 01:00:31

Nope. Or you're a witch.

Wendy: 01:00:32

Yeah.

Dave: 01:00:32

You know, like in olden times.

Wendy: 01:00:34

Yeah. Exactly. Yikes.

Wendy: 01:00:36

Hopefully, that won't become a contemporary time.

Dave: 01:00:39

Oh, I hope not.

Wendy: 01:00:40

I don't think

Wendy: 01:00:40

so either.

Dave: 01:00:42

We have to blow those pictures, though, because they can hold a lot of pain.

Wendy: 01:00:45

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's very true. Dave, thank you so much for

Dave: 01:00:50

You're welcome.

Wendy: 01:00:51

Coming and chatting with me.

Dave: 01:00:52

Yeah. Thank you so much for having me. I really, really appreciate it.

Wendy: 01:00:56

What a nice guy. Right? I mean, come on. If you'd like to learn more about Dave, schedule a reading, take a class, please visit divineroots.love. Thank you for listening, and thank you for the amazing feedback about the podcast.

Wendy: 01:01:14

It makes me blush so very much. Oh, and if you wanna check out my book Raven's Daughter, I've put a link in the show notes. I'll be back soon with another episode exploring how opening shamanic doors changed a logically minded career attorney in unexpected ways. Until next time.