Lucid Cafe

Wendy: 00:02

You're listening to Lucid Cafe. I'm your host, Wendy Halley. Thanks for joining me for another episode of Lucid Cafe, a podcast exploring consciousness and healing and the complexities of being human. So today's episode is all about karma, a subject that has always confused me and my confusion is on full display in this conversation. I spoke with Mordy Levine who along with his co author, Lama Lhanang Rinpoche, recently released the book, the beginner's guide to karma, how to live with less negativity and more peace.

Wendy: 01:08

So when New World Library reached out and asked if I'd be up for chatting with Morty, I was like, hell yeah. Maybe I'll finally get some insight into this word that a lot of people use to describe a lot of different things. Mordy was very patient with me and my many obnoxious questions. I guess I gave him lots of opportunities to demonstrate his decades of Buddhist practice. How nice of me.

Wendy: 01:41

In our conversation, Mordy explains the role that the universal law of cause and effect or karma plays in our lives and how to use this understanding to create a more positive path forward. Lama Lhanang Rinpoche, who sadly wasn't able to join us the day we spoke, was born in the Amdo region of historic Tibet and received a traditional monastic education and later studied under several Tibetan lamas. Today, he teaches Vajrayana Buddhism in San Diego, California. Mordy Levine is an entrepreneur, meditation teacher, and the president of the Jigme Lingpa Center in San Diego. He also created the Meditation Pro Series, a meditation program designed to alleviate chronic health issues.

Wendy: 02:30

So please enjoy my conversation with Mordy Levine. Mordy, thank you so much for joining me.

Mordy: 02:40

Happy to be here. Thank you.

Wendy: 02:42

Well, you'll have to excuse my ignorance on this topic. I am truly a heathen. I'm uncivilized, unenlightened. I I love the definition of heathen, and it definitely fits for me. So you'll have to just excuse my ignorance, but I'm curious about the topic, which so when the opportunity came up to talk with you about this new book you've just released, I was psyched because I thought, well, maybe I can finally understand karma.

Wendy: 03:16

So let me just say that you and your co author wrote the book, The Beginner's Guide to Karma, How to Live with Less Negativity and More Peace. So why don't we start with the real basics? How do you define karma?

Mordy: 03:33

Well, it's not so much how I define it. I've had good teachers, so I'll tell you how they define it.

Wendy: 03:38

Fair enough.

Mordy: 03:39

So the definition of karma literally means action, and it applies to action of thought, action of speech, and actual physical action. And the history of karma, or that word, goes back three thousand years. If you wanna go back ten, twenty, fifty thousand years, people did believe in something like that, they just didn't have a name for it. They felt like if you did things right, something good would happen, something wrong. You know, it's pretty basic stuff.

Mordy: 04:05

But that and that's true in all religions. But the history of karma goes back over three thousand years. It was written about in the Upanishads, which predates Hinduism. The concept is currently taught in many ways in Eastern religions. And Buddha, who came along about two thousand six hundred years ago, he brought to the table a number of other additional concepts.

Mordy: 04:27

One is that this mechanistic linear sense that we all think of karma is not true. It's not a simple linear cause. It's far more sophisticated. He also taught that the intention and motivation is really the core and basis of karma. So if I'm gonna write a check to the charity down the street for $100, you know why?

Mordy: 04:49

Because my neighbor wrote a check for 90 and I want people to see that I put in 100. Or then that's one intention or motivation. Or I can write a check for a hundred dollars because you know what? Those kids, they really need the school supplies and the food and what have you. So it's based upon the core of it is based upon motivation or intention.

Mordy: 05:08

He also showed that we can we have choice. We had nothing's predetermined. We can change our negative karma, so there's no sense of predeterminism. And then finally, it plays a primary role for those of us that believe in rebirth in the kind of life you will have and be reborn into because what we believe as Buddhists is is well, everyone knows that you don't take your body, your money, your house, your dogs, your you don't take anything with you. But from a Buddhist perspective, what you do take with you is your karma.

Wendy: 05:42

Okay.

Mordy: 05:42

So that's the in a nutshell, what the Buddha brought to the table.

Wendy: 05:46

So thank you for that. It still, to me, has this sort of and maybe it's because I'm a little thick. A lot thick. It has a a I guess the nuance part. Because when people reference karma to me, it's a very simplistic form of karma, like you were referencing. And and it usually the flavor of it involves punishment of some sort. Like, I've heard people say things actually, a lot of people say things like, well, I wanna do good in this lifetime so that I'm not reborn as a what they would consider a lower species of animal or insect or something like that. So they they look at it like that, or they're saying things like, this is my last lifetime. I am fixing everything in this lifetime. If I had a dime for every time somebody said that to me!

Mordy: 06:40

Mhmm. Sure.

Wendy: 06:42

I am done. No more of this human stuff. I am done with this, which I get because it's Sure. Life on planet Earth is not always easy.

Wendy: 06:50

But they have this sort of idea that if they can get it right this time, that they won't have to come back. But there's always this thread of karma going through their comments, or that I'm gonna pay in some way, or this person will pay in some way if they do harm to someone else. So those are typically the things that I hear people talk about. If you wanna comment on any of that, that would

Mordy: 07:18

be great. Let's just go with all that. I'm good with that. No. I'm I'm joking.

Mordy: 07:22

So there are basically three consequences to any action. Remember, action is thought, speech, and actual actions. There are actual actions. There are three consequences. One is if I am if I shoot you, I am more likely to shoot again.

Mordy: 07:40

And I am more likely to be shot, and I'm more likely to be in an environment of shooting. If I'm generous, I'm more likely to be generous again, developing a habit. Habits are synonymous with karma. I'm more likely for someone to be generous with me, and I'm more likely to be in an environment of generosity. That's kinda how the consequences of karma are.

Wendy: 07:59

Okay.

Mordy: 08:00

I listed three basic consequences. More likely to do it again. It's gonna happen back to me and or being in an environment. And you could see it, frankly, unfortunately, with domestic abuse. Father hurts the son, the child, the mother, whatever it is.

Mordy: 08:17

That kid grows up. Guess what? Unless he breaks that karma, breaks out of that habit, it's gonna happen again and again and again. So bad example, but it's it's it's truth. So let's talk a little bit about some of the referencing that you've received.

Mordy: 08:33

And is it possible to I'm gonna take care of all my karma now. I'm gonna reword rephrase what you said so I don't have to come back again. And and, you know, it's kinda like a Groundhog's Day situation. And some lineages of Buddhism believe that you can become enlightened in this lifetime and therefore can go to nirvana or come back and help others if you choose, etcetera, etcetera. But that takes a lot of work.

Mordy: 09:01

We can talk about that, but I'm not sure how helpful or practical that might be in this short conversation. But sure.

Wendy: 09:08

Fair enough.

Mordy: 09:09

Yeah. So. And in essence, all of our habits can be categorized very simply either as self centered versus selfish. So if it's self if our motivation is self centered, that's negative karma. So if I wanna donate that money that I mentioned earlier because I'm gonna wanna look better in the eyes of other people, that's a self centered motivation, that's supporting my ego, then that's negative karma.

Mordy: 09:38

And if it's rich, I really wanna take care of those kids. That's positive karma. That's one categorization. Another categorization is if I you know, we all have opinions and views about ourselves, about others, about situations. The stronger sense that my opinion is right.

Mordy: 09:55

Because the more stories we tell ourselves over and over again, you know, I'm a great businessman. I'm a great businessman. I'm a great businessman. I'm this. I'm that.

Mordy: 10:01

I'm a great father. I'm that. That solidifies those thoughts and that strengthens our sense of self, creates a sense of permanency. Any action that does that creates negative karma, and any thought, speech, or action that is very open minded creates positive karma. So it's another way of looking at it.

Mordy: 10:24

That Donald Trump, he's gonna be a horrible president. I just know I did that. I was like, yeah. Okay. So that sense that kind of thing is negative karma.

Mordy: 10:33

And the possibility that he might do positive things is is positive karma. We just don't know. Open mindedness versus

Wendy: 10:42

So even thinking about something, it's not necessarily always action.

Mordy: 10:47

Absolutely. So your thoughts, not mine, just yours, by the way, create karma. So and if your thoughts are self serving, selfish, solidifying, that's negative karma. And if they're more open minded, etcetera, that's positive karma.

Wendy: 11:09

Okay.

Mordy: 11:10

And think about it. I mean, the NIH, I think, I've said ten, twenty years ago, they did some kind of study back in the day. Says that we think 80,000 thoughts in a twenty four hour period. That's interesting. Okay.

Mordy: 11:20

I didn't know it was that many thoughts. You include dreaming. You included it. Got it. But, you know, what's more interesting is 85 to 9090% of those thoughts are the same from day to day.

Mordy: 11:30

Not a lot of new creative thoughts coming in. That's kind of a reflection of karma. We're just thinking the same thing, same stories over and over again.

Wendy: 11:38

Absolutely. Yeah. Alright. So I'd like to dive into that a little bit deeper here. So I I wanna reference a quote from your book.

Wendy: 11:46

Karma is referred to as a seed that gestates in the mind. And then you describe the consequences of actions taken to illustrate this point. Can you describe how you see the connection between the mind and action and behavior?

Mordy: 12:05

Everything starts with thoughts. The mind leads the way. I didn't say that. That's what the Buddha said. I just repeated it a little bit differently.

Mordy: 12:12

The mind leads the way. So we think, no pun intended, that, oh, he hit me. I just hit him right back. It's a trigger. In reality, there's if you break it down very, very slowly, there is a thought that takes place there and you have the option if we meditate or do things of that nature, we have the option to recognize the thought, be aware of it, and then choose whether to do something about it or not.

Mordy: 12:44

And then eventually, if we are aware and have the courage and desire, we can retrain our mind not to have that negative thought. Like, oh, that jerk, he punched me. I'm gonna punch. They think things things can be thought of differently.

Wendy: 13:00

Hold the phone. Yeah. Okay. So that's actually the the piece that I really would like to talk more about is you use the phrase, if you're aware. And so to me, triggers and habits reside in the realm of the unconscious.

Wendy: 13:17

They're so habitual that typically they're out of our awareness. And I I'm fond of saying that I think humans are 95 to 99% unconscious when we're awake, that we're just creatures of habit, thinking and believing and reacting and behaving in the same ways over and over again.

Mordy: 13:35

So And that's synonymous with we are creatures of our own karma.

Wendy: 13:40

Okay.

Mordy: 13:42

Karma and habits are synonymous, those two words.

Wendy: 13:45

Okay. That's helpful to know. And I don't think most people make the connection that their reactions are the result of a habit or a pattern that exists in their unconscious. They're just thinking it's novel or that it's justified or it's reasonable that they're not seeing that, oh, these these beliefs that I have that likely got set in stone when I was very young are actually having this ripple effect later in my life. And why do I keep finding myself in this kind of relationship or in this kind of work situation or in extreme cases getting arrested over and over again for assault or whatever the case

Mordy: 14:26

may be. Absolutely. You're dead right on. Totally. Exactly.

Mordy: 14:29

People are not aware. And they say yeah. I mean, there's a pattern. There's an expression in Yiddish, which I'm gonna give you to in English, which is if nine out of 10 people tell you you smell like fish, you smell like fish. So here, you know, when you create a pattern, but we don't see the pattern.

Wendy: 14:46

Right.

Mordy: 14:47

Or we excuse it or we justify it or it's someone else that creates this problem, not me.

Wendy: 14:53

Therein lies the dilemma to me, and that that's why I love the word lucid so much. It's the name of my wellness center, Lucid Path Wellness, and my podcast is Lucid Cafe. The idea of being lucid, to be aware, not just when you're dreaming, like lucid dreaming, but to be lucid while you're awake.

Mordy: 15:13

Mhmm.

Wendy: 15:14

How does one become aware of shit that they're not aware of? If it's your perspective.

Mordy: 15:21

Sure. So I I I'm highly biased. Let's put that out there.

Wendy: 15:25

Right.

Mordy: 15:25

Which is I believe pretty much the only way you can do that is through meditation. Now what I will say is that meditation does not just mean sitting somewhere cross legged, eyes closed, fingers in position, and and thinking all the time or not thinking. Meditation can also be swimming. Meditation can be gardening. Meditation can be any act where your mind is focused.

Mordy: 15:48

And if it's not focused, then you bring it back into focus. So it's just a way to retrain the mind. And so meditation is not playing tennis and, you know, and and your mind's all over scattered. But it could be playing tennis if you're just totally focused on what you're doing at that moment. And when you are not focused, you bring it back into focus.

Mordy: 16:08

So by using some form of meditation, we could probably list dozens, if not hundreds, of of ways to retrain the mind through that type of mentality. Then little by little, you become aware of where your thoughts are. And then you can become aware that you actually have a choice in how you think and how you speak and how you act. So when I talk to people, oh, that's my personality. Meaning, it's set and it's fixed.

Wendy: 16:37

Right.

Mordy: 16:38

That's a reflection of calcification or concretization, and therefore, that's where you go down that road and that's negative karma.

Wendy: 16:46

Well, and that's a belief in and of itself. It's just who I am.

Mordy: 16:50

Yeah. It's just who I am. It's just how I am. Yeah.

Wendy: 16:53

So it's like I wouldn't expect anything different from myself. Yeah. So there you go. You just have to kinda deal with the fact that I get angry a lot. Yeah.

Wendy: 17:02

Or it's my parents' fault. They treated me like this, so now I'm treating you like this.

Mordy: 17:08

Yeah. That's why I am who I am.

Wendy: 17:09

Deal with it. But I guess if you're wanting to be better because, I mean, to me, healing is not an easy road because it's like having to look in not just a regular mirror, it's a magnifying mirror. So you can see every flaw, every blackhead, every and then it's like, how do I accept that about myself? These blemishes in my psyche that are not serving me and not serving others maybe. That's a really tough pill for a lot of us to swallow is that idea that it's easier to blame an external source.

Wendy: 17:47

Right? It's harder to kinda look at yourself in that way and say, oh, I have some faulty thoughts or faulty beliefs that are not serving me.

Mordy: 17:55

Takes an incredible amount of courage to do it. You have two choices. We can live under illusion, which what we do most of the time, or we can live in lucidity. Got that. I got that word in there for you.

Wendy: 18:08

Thank you very much. I appreciate that.

Mordy: 18:09

Yeah. My problem. So and I'm I'm gonna use different words this time. We can live in our own prison of our own making or we can be free. You know, people come to Buddhism or a lot of religions because they wanna be happy.

Mordy: 18:24

I'm not quite sure what that word means. I know what the word free means and so we can bring them to a certain sense of freedom. Which could include joy and moments of happiness. But

Wendy: 18:34

But those are fleeting. Those

Mordy: 18:36

Those are fleeting. Right? Because Lama Lanang, my coauthor, says, when the food is good and the sun is shining, everyone is a good Buddhist practitioner.

Wendy: 18:47

Yeah. Yeah. So, I mean, would you mind I don't know how comfortable you feel about talking about your own journey, but your journey to Buddhism and your process of hopefully becoming more mindful.

Mordy: 19:03

Mhmm. Well, was born enlightened, so I'm joking. I don't see no

Wendy: 19:09

Oh, you said enlightened. Was

Mordy: 19:11

like I was born enlightened. Was trying to what

Wendy: 19:13

city is that? I just Right. Right.

Mordy: 19:15

Right. So, no, I was born in a Well,

Wendy: 19:17

good for you. That's awesome. Yeah.

Mordy: 19:19

Yeah. Right.

Wendy: 19:22

Nothing to see here, folks. I'm done.

Mordy: 19:24

Right. So yeah. So I well, I'll I'll make it a so I'm 66 years old, so it's a very long story. I'm gonna try to get it down into, let's say, one or two minutes, which is in graduate school at University of Chicago Business School. I was a very unhappy person.

Mordy: 19:40

I didn't know I had been unhappy my whole life. And I got invited to take a free Japanese karate class. It's very traditional. And I'm from Brooklyn. Was like, yeah, yeah, it's not gonna be a problem for me.

Mordy: 19:53

And it was brutal. I was ten minutes into it and I hated every minute. I said, I'm never coming back. I can't believe I did this. But what I noticed when I was done was that my mind was, as you would say, lucid, clear, joyful.

Mordy: 20:07

And not just because I did exercise. I'd always done exercise, but I never felt that way before. And I came back two days later, and then I kept practicing for the essentially the last, whatever, thirty, forty years. So that was my opening into Zen Buddhism.

Wendy: 20:22

If I can just interject a question real quick. Yep. What was it about practicing martial arts that created that clearness, that clarity?

Mordy: 20:31

If you're not in the moment, you're gonna get hit, and you're gonna get hurt.

Wendy: 20:35

Yeah. There's also a degree of discipline too that you're

Mordy: 20:39

so focused

Wendy: 20:41

on. Because as a former martial artist

Mordy: 20:44

Okay.

Wendy: 20:44

It is kind of life changing in that way to become aware of your body because you're moving it in ways that are not natural always. They don't feel natural. And so it's like having to coordinate all of these physical aspects and then also try not to get your ass kicked. At the same time, it requires a great deal of focus. And so, yeah, you have to be really present.

Wendy: 21:08

And then also to condition yourself in order to be a good fighter.

Mordy: 21:14

Yeah. Well well described. So there was meditation before and after class, you had to pay attention. If you didn't pay attention, you would get hurt. You had to pay attention so you can try to do the forms or the Kumite or the fighting well.

Mordy: 21:28

You had to pay attention. And the moment you weren't, you pay a price. You had the likelihood of paying a price. So that is kind of what opened the door for me. And when you're paying attention or everyone's gonna quote my lama my coauthor, Lama Hanang, the past is history.

Mordy: 21:42

The future is mystery. The present moment is a gift. So I would learn I learned. I'm still learning that the present moment being in the present moment, you're in the present moment. You're not thinking about, woe is me.

Mordy: 21:54

I can't believe that happened to me yesterday or tomorrow or this is what's coming up. So the more you do that, the more you dip yourself into that world, the more likely you are to stay in that world. And and to get back to your original question, it's very hard. It's very hard. I still struggle with it today.

Mordy: 22:09

Everyone struggles with it until you're struggling with it less and less, meaning to choose to be in the present moment, to choose to pay attention, and to not be under an illusion that, oh, that's because someone else did this and said that and blame some other thing outside of ourselves.

Wendy: 22:25

So what did you do when you would bump up against maybe frustration? Because the the process is not immediate. You don't immediately arrive at that deeply mindful place. You have to work towards it. Right?

Mordy: 22:37

I mean Mhmm.

Wendy: 22:38

But not every day is an easy day to do that.

Mordy: 22:41

To get back to you to get back to your question, I'm keeping looking over at my dog. That's why I wanna make sure he's behaving, which he's not. But to answer your question a few different ways, one is it's a little bit like playing golf. People go out there play golf, they play horribly, and then somewhere after three or four hours they have one great shot and that great shot them back the next week. So this is a little bit similar to that, which is life is difficult, our minds are out of control, but then you kind of have a little bit of moment of clarity or a little bit of silence or clarity during meditation or you see how it impacts some other part of your day and you realize, ah, I'm gonna keep doing more of this.

Mordy: 23:30

It's a good thing.

Wendy: 23:30

You have to have a degree of motivation.

Mordy: 23:33

Yes. Absolutely.

Wendy: 23:35

Or maybe a high degree.

Mordy: 23:37

Well, different degrees, certainly, you know, but some people choose not to do martial arts. They choose to do tea ceremony or flower arrangement or swimming or whatever. And some people practice martial arts three hours a day for months and years. Other people just go swimming twice a week. So different degrees of motivation, different degrees of we'll call it I don't wanna use the word success, progress.

Wendy: 24:02

So then are you recommending that folks try to find a practice that resonates with them and maybe fills them with a bit of excitement, even knowing that it could be challenging at times, but because of that excitement, they're more likely to stick to it?

Mordy: 24:19

Absolutely. So, you know, there's a whole comfort zone theory, which is you stay in your comfort zone and you just you're like the frog in the frying pan. You're just gonna wither away. You go too far outside of your comfort zone, and you're in panic mode. You don't really learn anything.

Mordy: 24:31

So you have to go outside your comfort zone a little bit in order to learn something, but but you have to pick something that you like or a teacher that is motivating. You don't wanna just go to a some martial arts class with someone's brutal or they're not motivating you or they don't put a smile on your face.

Wendy: 24:49

Someone with bad karma.

Mordy: 24:51

That right. Exactly. That's exactly right. So they have to talk the talk and walk the walk. And and, you know, when you come out of a a class on like I said, it could be anything or I keep referring to swimming, could be gardening or you don't even have to go to a class.

Mordy: 25:07

But something's gotta put a little bit of smile on your face and want you to to come back so that, you know, that that's how you know that you found the right when I was teaching martial arts, people would say, oh, should my son or daughter do judo or should they do karate? It's like, it doesn't really matter. Find the right teacher.

Wendy: 25:23

Or the right art too.

Mordy: 25:24

Or the right art. Or the right art. Absolutely. Absolutely. The right people.

Wendy: 25:30

Okay. That's super helpful. How about I thought this was interesting in your book. Two types of karma, heavy and light. Can you talk a bit about the differentiation between those two types of karma?

Mordy: 25:46

Sure. So there's thoughts which can lead to speech or lead to action. If I'm sitting on my sofa or sitting on my couch and I'm watching some politician on TV and I'm going, I could kill that guy or gal. Okay. That's clearly not positive karma.

Mordy: 26:02

It's negative karma. But there's a big difference between that and me going and getting a gun, driving over to DC. Sound familiar to anyone? And and and and trying to shoot someone, that is more of a complete action. Heavier versus light as well.

Mordy: 26:17

You know, there's a fly in the room, and I'm gonna go swat it. Clearly not positive karma, but it's doesn't compare to me running someone over intentionally with my car.

Wendy: 26:31

Understood. Okay. So heavy karma is more about consequences that have dire effects?

Mordy: 26:39

Heavy karma, yeah, are more about consequences related to the actions. And those actions, you have to look at your the motivation and the degree of action. For example, humans are not do not have the same killing a human is different than killing a a fly. Harming one's parent is a lot heavier than harming someone else. Harming your spiritual teacher is a lot heavier than harming someone else.

Mordy: 27:07

Speech has doesn't have as much harm as action itself. So thinking something is different than speaking it is different something than than actually doing something about it.

Wendy: 27:18

Okay. So I'll just add this to my ignorant question list. But I remember going to some workshop at I can't remember where it was. Anyway, I remember hearing someone talk about not wanting to harm any creature.

Mordy: 27:38

Mhmm.

Wendy: 27:38

They didn't like stepping on ants. Mhmm. Just zero harm, not wanting to eat any animal protein because of karma. They were saying, like So is that the suggestion? Is that people should be living like that, or is that more an extreme?

Mordy: 27:58

It's definitely extreme, and we would not necessarily suggest that. So we go back to intention and motivation. Right? So and let's understand that when I get in my car and I drive somewhere, I'm killing flies along the way. Can I walk?

Mordy: 28:13

I can walk. Can I watch where my steps are? I step on grass. Oh, I'm probably harming something there as well.

Wendy: 28:19

Even the grass.

Mordy: 28:19

Even the grass. Well, yeah. Okay. I don't wanna get into whether grass are sentient beings or not, but that's another story. But sure.

Mordy: 28:25

Even the grass. That's a whole

Wendy: 28:27

they are, but that's okay.

Mordy: 28:28

Okay. They're okay. I'm not gonna disagree with that.

Wendy: 28:31

I'm I'm like an animist, I guess.

Mordy: 28:32

So I'm a vegetarian. But like the Dalai Lama, not to compare myself to Dalai Lama, once a week or so, could be more, sometimes I'll have fish. Okay. Well, what we do is as Buddhists, specifically as I don't wanna yeah. We'll just leave it at that as Buddhists, practicing Buddhist, is we will express some kind of prayer recognizing that that animal gave its life so that I can benefit.

Mordy: 29:02

And wishing the consciousness of that animal well, so that when it is reborn, it is reborn, has a better auspicious rebirth. So that is how we address harm to animals and living things. The Buddha himself told his students, if you are walking around seeking alms for the day and someone gives you living a a meat, eat it. But don't go out there requesting it. If it's made specifically for you, don't eat it.

Mordy: 29:45

But if if it's just someone's just comes into you and so that that's once again, we look at motivation.

Wendy: 29:52

Wait. If somebody gives it to you, don't eat it?

Mordy: 29:55

No. No. If you're walking down the street with your bowl and someone puts meat in your bowl, eat it.

Wendy: 29:59

Okay. Okay. That's what I'm saying.

Mordy: 30:00

But don't go to a restaurant and request meat.

Wendy: 30:02

Okay. Meaning that it would do more harm to reject someone's generous offer of food to you than to request meat in particular where it would cause harm to an animal.

Mordy: 30:18

Right. I'm not suggesting by rejecting it, you're going to cause harm to the giver. I'm not suggesting that at all.

Wendy: 30:24

Oh, okay.

Mordy: 30:25

Okay. So the way I interpret that is sometimes I'll go out to eat with my wife. She's not a vegetarian. And I'll order or I'm on the airplane, whatever. And I order egg and cheese on a roll.

Mordy: 30:40

And it comes and I say, no bacon. Vegetarian, no bacon. And lo and behold, it comes and there's bacon in it. Some people lose, they take the bacon out. I don't do that.

Mordy: 30:54

My feeling about that is that this is my own in my own mind, so we have to be careful when we look in our own mind. But my motivation is that animal gave its life. I don't wanna waste it. Now from a health perspective, one might take the attitude that, you know, the animal was killed at the moment that it was killed in that slaughterhouse. It was an ultimate panic.

Mordy: 31:16

It was which is true. And therefore, that level of chemical changes in that animal come to into you because you're now eating meat. I do believe that. But what I will do when I do eat that that bacon or that fish is I will say a prayer for their consciousness to and and be very grateful that they gave their lives so that I can that I can eat and nourish.

Wendy: 31:42

That that sounds just respectful too. It sounds Mhmm. Purely respectful. And the tough part about living on our planet is is it's a planet of survival. Like, everybody eats everybody else to survive, whether it's plant or animal.

Wendy: 31:58

I mean Mhmm. How to be in relationship with that.

Mordy: 32:02

Mhmm.

Wendy: 32:02

And I guess we all have to find our way. Some people don't care, and some people do care depending on, I guess, their spiritual beliefs or whatever they practice.

Mordy: 32:14

Right. What what what I like to recommend is, hey. Not everyone's gonna be vegetarian. That's great. I get it.

Mordy: 32:21

No problem. But you know what? If you're eating meat four times a week and you really care, and some people don't, that's okay. I don't I don't judge. Whatever people wanna do is okay with me within reason, of course, but is, hey, instead of eating meat four times a week, eat meat three times a week.

Mordy: 32:36

Okay. Guess what? Now you're saving lives. You wanna say a prayer beforehand? I think we have a prayer in the book somewhere.

Mordy: 32:42

Three or four sentences that you can say before you eat meat, when you eat fish, things like that. That's great too. It's an awareness level. You call it respectful. You call it good karma if you want.

Mordy: 32:54

But we we wanna recognize that we that that that some animal gave its life so that we could be nourished.

Wendy: 33:02

Understood. Okay. So I wanna go back to responsibility for a second. Are we responsible for actions that cause harm that we didn't intend? Like, you gave the example of driving your vehicle.

Wendy: 33:17

I mean, bugs are going to collide with your vehicle, but you're not intending, like, I'm gonna see how many bugs I can kill when I go to the grocery store.

Mordy: 33:27

Right. Right. Right. Sure. Sure.

Mordy: 33:29

Sure. Sure. So instead of using the word responsibility, let's use the word karma just for the heck of it. So yes. So the question is, do you have negative karma if while you're driving you hit a fly and you kill the fly?

Mordy: 33:42

And the answer is no, because you don't have and your intention is you're on your way to a hospital, go save someone's life. You know? It's like, okay. Your intention was good. You didn't have that negative, selfish, concretized intention.

Wendy: 33:59

What if somebody's going to get some fast food, and it's not a noble thing like going to save someone's life? It's just

Mordy: 34:06

I knew you were gonna ask that. That was a bad example. Someone's going to get some fast food to eat themselves to eat for themselves, and they hit a fly and kill the fly. Same thing. Their intention is not.

Mordy: 34:17

That was not their intention.

Wendy: 34:18

Okay. But the fact that they're probably getting a burger, that's different.

Mordy: 34:22

They're going to the fast food to get a vegetarian sandwich. Okay? I'm just trying to I'm trying to make a point here and and, your honor, and not letting you make my point.

Wendy: 34:33

I don't know. I don't mean to be a pain in the ass.

Mordy: 34:34

But That's okay.

Wendy: 34:35

I'm I'm just I'm just like yeah. Just, again, trying to understand. And also look through the lens that most people probably are looking through is that they might be asking themselves this question. So does that mean, like, I shouldn't eat a hamburger or I shouldn't? Yeah.

Wendy: 34:54

I mean, I don't know. It's such an intimate thing.

Mordy: 34:56

I'm not gonna get into the shoulds and the shouldn'ts. What I what I will say is that if one if one eats meat and fish without regard for the fact that an animal is slaughtered for them and they have zero awareness of that, it's probably negative karma.

Wendy: 35:24

Okay.

Mordy: 35:25

I hate to be and I'll be honest with you, I'll also add an addendum. I don't really like being this has nothing to do with you. I don't like putting myself in a position to say, Oh, that person's negative. I don't like that. Do you know why?

Mordy: 35:39

Because I don't really know what people's motivations are.

Wendy: 35:43

Right.

Mordy: 35:44

Know. Yeah. Go ahead. I

Wendy: 35:46

also know.

Mordy: 35:47

Go ahead.

Wendy: 35:48

I was just gonna say I also know I mean, based on my work with people over years as a clinician, a mental health clinician, that sometimes people can take things very literally and then maybe beat themselves up over things and start questioning things. So that's why I'm kind of playing devil's advocate a little bit, just to put people at ease around, like, oh, shit. Am I screwing up by doing what I'm doing right now?

Mordy: 36:15

Right. So I think we need to take things in in steps. Step number one is let's be aware. Step number one is let's educate ourselves. Let's have an understanding.

Mordy: 36:26

Let's get clear about what's going on. And then step number two, same thing, little baby steps. You know, I'm gonna go from if I buy into what I learned in step one, I'm gonna eat a little bit less meat. If you're motivated to in one year, six months or two years later not to eat any meat, great, no problem. If you wanna eat meat, great.

Mordy: 36:43

No problem. I don't walk by fast food restaurants looking at people eating meat and going, oh, bad karma for people. I don't know what their motivation is. I have zero idea. That's why I hesitate to say what is good and what is bad karma because it's based on motivation, which I don't know.

Mordy: 36:56

I barely know my own motivations half the time or 9080% of the time running around my head. But that's the idea. That's where we wanna head towards is becoming more aware, more lucid so that we understand our motivations and we go, you know, I really my motivation is not really very pure here. I need to either change my motivation or change my action or or rethink my thought.

Wendy: 37:19

Okay. Again, I think it's tricky territory because and, I don't mean to be a pain in the ass, but tricky territory in that we can talk ourselves into or out of anything. Right? We can justify anything. So if we say our intentions are actually good, but subconsciously or unconsciously

Mordy: 37:39

Mhmm.

Wendy: 37:40

There's really a desire to do harm, but we're telling ourselves, I'm not trying to hurt that person, or I'm not trying to hurt that thing or whatever, or I'm not trying to generate this is I'm I'm generating good karma right now. But in reality, their unconscious motivation is in conflict with what the story they're telling themselves is.

Mordy: 38:02

Mhmm. Well, as you become more of a meditator and more aware of your thoughts, then you see that that unconscious motivation is really very becomes very conscious.

Wendy: 38:14

Okay.

Mordy: 38:14

You're hiding anything from yourself or fooling yourself.

Wendy: 38:18

So that is the process.

Mordy: 38:19

That's the process. Okay. You don't wanna fool yourself anymore. You don't wanna live under illusion. You don't wanna have an underlying motivation that's different than what you think it is.

Mordy: 38:27

Blah blah blah. Yes. That's that's where we start.

Wendy: 38:30

Alright. So a lot of what I was reading in your book, it seems to come back to, well, requiring a degree of compassion or empathy for others. Mhmm. And that made me wonder about what your perspective is on sociopathy or psychopathy. So people who are sociopaths or psychopaths and don't have the their brains are not wired to have empathy, and they can fake compassion.

Wendy: 39:04

So from the Buddhist tradition, how does that mind fit into all of this?

Mordy: 39:11

Mhmm. So I'm definitely not an expert on those big words. I know what they are, by the way. But I'm not an expert on them. But what Buddhists believe is that we all have, we call it Buddha nature.

Mordy: 39:27

Even the little ant and dog, we all have Buddha nature. Talk about trees and grass in another episode. So we all have Buddha nature, which means that but it's obscure. The sun is shining, but sometimes there's clouds over it. Is the sun still shining?

Mordy: 39:42

Absolutely. But there's clouds. It's raining out. Is the sun shining? It is, but you just don't see same thing.

Mordy: 39:48

We have Buddha nature. Buddha nature but it gets obscured by our karma and all these things that kind of like all these clouds, all this negativity. So Buddha nature means yeah. I hate to define it. So so but something along the lines of we have a desire to to be compassionate and to reduce the suffering in ourselves and others.

Mordy: 40:13

When that is foremost in your mind and and you are immersed in that mentality, that state of mind, that way of being, that's Buddha nature. Now so people are sick. I get that. People are psychopathology. I I get all that.

Mordy: 40:31

But deep down, there's Buddha nature.

Wendy: 40:36

So would you say that somebody who is living a life with a brain that is not wired for empathy, like a sociopath, that that would be a byproduct of that particular person's karma? That this is like a a byproduct of Yes. That's interesting. Okay.

Mordy: 40:57

So so there's genetics. Right? Mhmm. Father had that, the son has that, whatever, or grandson, etcetera, etcetera. And then there's the culture.

Mordy: 41:05

There's lots of it's not like it's like I said earlier, it's not a linear mechanistic thing. It's not that simple. So there's so many things that can come into play. Itself is a part of karma. The culture, the stuff we watch on TV, how our parents treated us, what we learned in school.

Mordy: 41:20

So this all comes into play. Not everyone who is born two twins are born, identical genetics, almost identical genetics, and one of them has zero empathy, and the other one but they are raised apart. And and the other one is raised in an environment where there's a lot of compassion. They'll they'll probably grow up differently.

Wendy: 41:42

Interesting. Okay. Yeah. I'm not an expert on on psychopathy or sociopathy, but my understanding is that it is it's like a wiring issue in the brain. So it's like they're born without the capacity.

Wendy: 41:55

But Right. I don't know if if not everybody who has that wiring will manifest in harming others, but, like, becoming serial killers, that kind of thing. But I think the environment plays a role in that. So if if they have a lot of trauma, if they're abused or whatever, that that could manifest in their ability to have more ease with wanting to really hurt people or kill people or whatever. Anyway, I know you don't wanna go down that rabbit hole.

Wendy: 42:22

But I'll

Mordy: 42:23

go I'll go one step further, which is that this concept of neuroplasticity, right, become very popular in last ten, twenty years. So under neuroplasticity, nothing's hardwired. I'll give you an example. And these are just anecdotal. Right?

Mordy: 42:36

The worst killers in the world, the worst murderers in the world still have compassion for their children. Or or you give them a you know, they're in jail and you let them you know, give them a kitten or a dog or whatever to take care of and to train. And they have compassion. So which you would never ever expect. Are there people out there that under any circumstances, zero, don't even have a compassion for themselves, etcetera?

Mordy: 43:03

I'm sure there are, but it just means they haven't met the right kitten yet.

Wendy: 43:06

Right, right, yeah. Yeah, well I probably should shut up about that because I don't know enough anyway.

Mordy: 43:12

Oh, don't let that bother me. I'm just always talk about stuff I don't know anything about. I try not to let facts get in the way.

Wendy: 43:19

Well, you're living in the right time.

Mordy: 43:22

Right. Exactly.

Wendy: 43:26

Alright. So let me ask you this one final question. Why should we care about karma?

Mordy: 43:32

Right. Yeah. Well, from a very selfish point of view, if you want to lead a happier, I hate that word, freer life, less suffering for yourself, then it's like the Dalai Lama says, if you're gonna be selfish, be wisely selfish, which is do something for someone else. Because he knows by doing something for someone else, you're gonna have you're gonna get some accrue some good karma. So so that's at its at its most at its core.

Mordy: 44:05

You know? That's why we care because you'll just live a better life.

Wendy: 44:12

Alright.

Mordy: 44:14

I hope.

Wendy: 44:15

So if people wanted to learn more

Mordy: 44:18

Mhmm.

Wendy: 44:19

Beyond your book

Mordy: 44:21

Mhmm.

Wendy: 44:22

Do you work with people? Do you help them in this way? Do you help them learn to meditate?

Mordy: 44:29

Yes. I so I I actually taught meditation for twenty, thirty years and did one on one and all that stuff, and I don't really do that anymore. However, the best thing that they can do is find a good teacher. A teacher that puts a smile on their face, a teacher that talks the talk, walks the walk, a teacher that you wanna go back and see and learn from them, things like that. And that could be, frankly, honestly, it could be in any religion.

Mordy: 44:55

I'm not here to promote Buddhism. But if you wanted to use the word karma in those teaching, then you gotta go to a Buddhist, you know, center. And you could start by watching YouTube videos, things like that just to kinda nurse your you'd nurse your curiosity a little bit and learn something. But eventually, a lot of this stuff to to learn it appropriately and to immerse yourself in it, you need a teacher to guide you. So that's that's my recommendation.

Wendy: 45:19

Alright. Great. And you might be able to find a meditation center in your area.

Mordy: 45:26

Yes. For sure.

Wendy: 45:28

Here in Central Vermont, we have one in Northfield.

Mordy: 45:31

Ah, there you go. Yeah. And now with Zoom, you know, like, we a lot of our classes are online on Zoom. So if for if you wanna wanna come to one of our classes led by Lama Lanang Rinpoche, my coauthor, you go to Buddhist San Diego dot com, and there's a full calendar of stuff on there. But, you know, we're not here to promote ourselves, although he's a phenomenal teacher, but there's there's plenty of places now you can go on Zoom and and start learning.

Wendy: 45:54

Right. Well, I will include a link to his website in the show notes.

Mordy: 45:58

Very good.

Wendy: 45:59

Thank you. Promote it. Yes. Thank you. And then, of course, encourage people to check out your books.

Wendy: 46:04

Yes. You've also both, written the book, The Tibetan Book of the Dead for Beginners.

Mordy: 46:09

Yes. Thank you.

Wendy: 46:10

And your books can be purchased anywhere

Mordy: 46:13

Correct.

Wendy: 46:13

In the usual places.

Mordy: 46:14

Yeah. In many I think it's written in, like, eight or nine different countries now.

Wendy: 46:18

Alright. Beautiful.

Mordy: 46:19

Yeah. Isn't that crazy?

Wendy: 46:21

Who would've thought? Makes sense. It makes sense. Mordy, well, thank you so much for joining me.

Mordy: 46:26

Very nice meeting you, Wendy. Thank you so much. Appreciate your time.

Wendy: 46:33

I feel like I should send Mordy a fruit basket or something for putting up with me. Overall, I think I have a better understanding of karma, so that's good. I hope you do too. If you'd like to learn more about Buddhism, meditation, and karma, please visit the websites linked in the show notes. Thank you for listening.

Wendy: 46:55

I'll be back in a few weeks with one of my new favorite people who shares simple and powerful ways to tell your story. Until next time.