The Critical State of Thinking with Dr Janine Oliver
This is Wendy Halley, and you're listening to Lucid Cafe. And we're back with another definitely thought provoking episode of Lucid Cafe that I'm really excited to share with you. But before we dive in, one of the best ways to connect with personal power when you're feeling powerless is to become your own shaman. And now you can do that from the comfort of your own home by enrolling in the Become Your Own Shaman online course. It's a self paced experiential introductory course that gives you the groundwork to start a personal shamanic practice.
Wendy:We'll explore subjects like the nature of reality, the nature of the self and how it relates to consciousness, and you'll learn the mechanics of how to safely and easily enter shamanic trance state using sound. Then we'll dive into some fundamental experiential exercises introducing you to the shamanic realms and two of your personal spirit helpers. Are you ready to take the first step toward becoming your own shaman? Visit lucidpathwellness.com or use the link in the show notes to enroll and start your journey toward deepening your connection to the unseen world and yourself. Okay.
Wendy:Today's episode strikes me as a really important one. If you're listening to this podcast, there's a good chance that you're interested in being the healthiest, most balanced, and best version of yourself. So what if you found out that you were possibly engaged in an activity that was causing you harm? And what if that activity had a detrimental effect on your brain and its ability to regulate emotional reactions and engage in critical thinking, especially during a time like we're in where we really kinda need our wits about us. My guest, Doctor.
Wendy:Janine Oliver, is a clinical psychologist who has expertise in social media, reality TV, and critical thinking. I really enjoyed my conversation with Janine and so appreciate her down to earth, honest way of talking about stuff that most of us probably don't really wanna talk about or maybe even look at. In this episode, we discuss what her research uncovered about the impact social media and reality TV has on our brains and how, with some adjustments, you can reverse that impact. Janine is a cognitive psychologist and licensed clinical social worker who, in addition to working with clients in her Philadelphia area practice, offers professional presentations and specialized consulting regarding her research. She's also the author of the book The Practical Drug Free Ways to Rewire Your Brain, which we did not discuss in our conversation because I was not aware that she wrote this book until after we met.
Wendy:I never said I was professional. Now you have even more proof. And, oh, yeah. One more thing that's worth mentioning since I referenced it in this interview. It's probably a good time to announce that I have a new book coming out at the May.
Wendy:It's called Raven's Daughter. I've gone more mainstream with this book. It's speculative fiction. It's a combination of fantasy and near future sci fi about a mind virus of deception. It's definitely fiction!
Wendy:More details to come, but in the meantime, please enjoy my conversation with Doctor Janine Oliver. Janine, thank you so much for joining me.
Janine:Thank you so much, Wendy. Thanks for having me.
Wendy:Yeah. You bet.
Janine:Glad to be here.
Wendy:I am really psyched you're here. Let's just give a little background.
Wendy:So I attended a webinar for continuing education that you facilitated, that you provided. And the topic was so intriguing. I was thinking as you were chatting during those eight hours or however long it was, it felt like felt like a long time. It's a long day. Can't imagine what it's like to present for that long.
Wendy:But I was thinking how this information that you researched needs to get out there. I was thinking that interviewing you, if you were up for it, would be a great way to share this information beyond the clinical world.
Janine:Yes. Right, right. I appreciate that. I really do. Yeah, I agree.
Wendy:So, why don't we start with... why don't you just give me a little bit of your background, like what you do, how you practice, what your research has been about?
Janine:Sure, sure. Yeah, absolutely. Again, thanks for having me. And I appreciate the interest. I really do.
Janine:I find that there are a lot of people that are interested in the topic, and I'll get into that in a moment. But first, a little bit of background. So, I started out my professional career as a social worker. I was always interested in advocacy and I was interested in the advocacy element of helping people. And I also wanted to be a therapist.
Janine:So, I began, like I said, getting my master's in social work with a combination of community social work and direct practice. And I really enjoyed it. And then I took a short hiatus and traveled around a little bit, not too too much in the American way of life, but I'd always wanted to travel and thought that if I didn't do it when I was younger, I might not do it. So I traveled to Europe, I traveled to Greece, and that's just been something that I had always wanted to do. And I didn't really have a chance at young.
Janine:So, this is my mid-20s and I kind of did the Bohemia thing, which was really, really good and interesting. I bet. Yeah, it was great. I wanted to learn about not only other cultures, but I wanted to learn about how my culture looked to other cultures. So from the outside in.
Janine:So just a shift in perspective, so.
Wendy:I bet it's a great I actually haven't traveled in that way.
Wendy:I've never had a passport. Just haven't had the opportunity to do a lot of travel, but Yeah. I can't imagine how mind expanding and mind shifting it must be to be immersed in another culture.
Janine:Well, for some reason, and that that is like a everybody kinda has a a drive, like an inner desire, I think. And it had been it was something that I had always wanted to do. My my one brother traveled, he was in the Air Force, and I remember him coming home all through, and he's older, he's older than me, he's significantly older, and I was very young, and I would remember him coming home from his travels with all of these like artifacts it seemed. Like one time he came home with wooden shoes. Another time he came home with, yeah, and I'm like wooden shoes?
Janine:That's awesome. Like where did he get going?
Wendy:What's that about? Yeah.
Janine:Right. Another time we came home with, like just this beautiful, beautiful colored glass from Italy, these glasses for our mother. And so it just, maybe that was the impetus for the inner curiosity, but it had been something that I had always wanted to do and kind of felt stifled, although happy that I was in college, but kind of felt stifled because I knew I needed to finish. So then I grabbed the opportunity when I graduated and I just went. I got my passport and I went and didn't have a lot of money, college student situation.
Janine:And I just, yeah, I just went alone, which scared my mother. But
Wendy:anyway, yeah. Mean, I think we all have that kind of bravado when we're in our twenties.
Janine:Yeah. I wish I'd lost it a little, but Yeah, you're right though. You're right. And I love that about youth. I love that, you know, there's like this invincibility that we often which is really cool.
Wendy:World is very wooster.
Janine:Yeah, yeah. And I say that frequently to people at that age and beyond. So then I came back and I worked in the field of social work and I decided, and I really enjoyed that as well. I worked in foster care system. I worked eventually in direct practice, but then I still had, you know, just a really driving curiosity and a love of learning that had, that I'd always had from very young.
Janine:I can remember my father taking me to the library before kindergarten. So it was just this magical place where everything was small like me. Even some of the books were small like the little Beatrix Potter.
Wendy:Doctor. Yeah.
Janine:So, it was fascinating. So, then I decided to go back to school and pursue my doctorate in psychology. And so, then I really stepped up the direct practice work and, you know, continued along that path. And that's how I ended up researching the topic that you ended up seeing, which I'm really grateful for, which was reality television, social media, and its effect on critical thinking ability. And then here we are.
Janine:Kind of short summation, but Yeah.
Wendy:No. That's Yeah. Me, you were talking about the elephant in the middle of the room, what your research uncovered. Mhmm. The phrase critical thinking.
Wendy:Yeah. And I was like Yeah. She said it.
Janine:I'm telling you, it's taking some pits.
Wendy:I can imagine because it's like
Janine:It's hurting.
Wendy:So, your research, talk a little bit about your and like what, what group you studied and age.
Janine:Yeah, sure. Yeah, absolutely. So I had always been glad, like I had said before, like this love of learning had been something. And in my college days, that was something, like I can remember being in the classroom and just wanting to be the smartest person in the room and wanting that and that being like a pretty common thread. And I'm not saying that it still is not present in colleges because I also teach at a local college.
Janine:I'm a psychology professor there, which I love. So it's not completely gone. I don't want to paint this dire picture, but it's taken a hit as we said before. And so I could just remember wanting to be the smartest person, you know, wanting to learn and absorb the knowledge that these professors had, the other students in the room and everything. So there's just this love of learning that I appreciated and wanted.
Janine:And I can remember just this downturn of it, okay? Downturn of the curiosity, downturn of just acceptance.
Wendy:Of your own?
Janine:Just noticing around me and feeling like, feeling out of place. Like am I, what's happening here?
Wendy:Is this amongst your peers or as your team?
Janine:Amongst my peers. Yeah, amongst my peers and noticing like a down, instead of an uptick, a down turn. And then I remember what started my curiosity and the impetus for my research. I remember looking, because we have to pick a topic of course, and we have to find a gap in available information.
Wendy:Doctor. Was this for your doctoral dissertation?
Janine:Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Have to, people have studied critical thinking for a long time, but you have to find something that hasn't been studied or pick a niche and then study that to exhaustion. Or at least that's what it feels like.
Wendy:Yeah, I bet.
Janine:Yeah, yeah. I often compare it to feeling like sitting in a tub in the middle of the ocean. At times, that's how it feels. We're in grad school, you know, we're together.
Wendy:That sounds like a lot of fun. Yeah.
Janine:In some ways, yeah. It really calls upon all kinds of reserves that you didn't realize you had.
Wendy:Just as a side note, when I was in graduate school, getting my master's, I didn't get a doctoral degree, but I was a TA for one of the professors to try to help pay for some of my very expensive tuition. Right. And edited dissertations for the doctoral students for APA Yeah.
Janine:No, you could do
Wendy:And I would get these tomes that I would have to bring home and I would have to flag all of the heading errors and all of formatting errors and all the style errors.
Janine:Well, take my hat off to you. Wow. You earned your money.
Wendy:But just the amount of work that went into each dissertation, I was like, I can't, yeah, anyway, but that's just my little Yeah,
Janine:it a lot and deep appreciation for that. Yeah, thank you. And myself too. And I just, right. So that's, you have to love reading a lot, digging deep, and you have to love your topic.
Janine:And so when I was thinking about what I wanted to research, I wanted to do something with thinking and critical thinking. And I thought back to when I first entered college at 18, this was right around the time I grew up watching MTV, music television. Me too, yep. And I think we all, yeah, kind of, you know, our age. And what was the other?
Janine:VH1. And there was actually music on.
Wendy:Yeah, back when they had videos, yeah.
Janine:Right, and I used to look
Wendy:forward I saw the inaugural MTV, like when it first came live, I remember watching Yeah.
Janine:Oh my god. Was like 85
Wendy:I think or something like that.
Janine:Right. Right. And I remember this show that came out, Real World.
Wendy:Yeah.
Janine:Right? This reality show. And I'm like, I'm like, what? What is this? This is never gonna catch up.
Janine:What did I read that wrong?
Wendy:Famous last words.
Janine:Right. And I just thought this this is impossible. How could people? And there was a lot of good that was done on that show. Like I'm not even detracting from that.
Janine:Like they talked about difficult topics. They talked about homosexuality at a time when it was, there was a lot of fear. Right. They talked about, and it kind of organically happened, which I thought was good and compelling, but it slowly kind of disintegrated into this person shouldn't wear pink. And it just kind of took a turn that I didn't expect.
Janine:And then and Cops was another reality TV show. I just couldn't believe the myopic, like the really narrow perspective and how it did, I thought it was doing more harm than good, a show like that. So I just, I, I knew that I wanted to research that. I knew I wanted to find out why I was so like wrong in my initial assessment that, that this is gonna just never take hold. I felt like Jackie Gleason when he assessed Elvis.
Janine:Oh, he'll never get famous. I was like, wow. Okay. Wrong.
Wendy:Didn't know Jackie Gleason said that about him.
Janine:He did. Can you believe him? Anyway, both talented people, both talented people. But obviously, Elvis, everybody knows his name. So, yeah, so I knew I wanted to look deeper into that and I wanted to find out if there was a connection.
Janine:And I, of course, media was another venue that had become so popular, and I wanted to use that as another corollary in the overall assessment. So that's how I ended up researching it.
Wendy:Okay. Before we get to your findings, I think it would be helpful for, maybe this is not necessary, but I think it would be helpful to define what critical thinking is, especially from your Yeah.
Janine:It simply put is just deeper level analysis. It's not accepting what you read or hear or see at face value. It's questioning assumptions. It's questioning the person or entity that is giving forth the information. It's questioning motives.
Janine:So, it's in some is like deeper level analysis. Not accepting. I can remember my father saying like, don't accept everything you hear. Ask questions.
Wendy:Doctor. Good advice.
Janine:And yeah, and learn with that intent in mind to learn and to, and have a conversation, have like a dialogue. I feel like what's happened to that? Like we're doing now, which is wonderful. But what's happened to that?
Wendy:That's a great question.
Janine:We're in our spaces and we don't have, psychologists talk about, we have to have, we need to have difficult conversations that make us, quote, uncomfortable. Yep. You know?
Wendy:It also can bolster connection too, if you think about it. Like, if you're able to have a healthy conversation with someone about a difficult topic Yeah. It can actually, I think, increase respect between the people, even if they end up disagreeing at the end of it. But
Janine:Absolutely. And that's that's one of the things that I feel is so needed right now. We forget how like we are. It's not just a great phrase that I say at the end of yoga, like, we're more alike than we are different. It's really true.
Janine:It's 100% true. And when you brought that up about connection, I remember that's what Ken Burns does with his specials. He reminds us how we're all very similar, how we've gone through many similar experiences, and he tells it in a story format that we can all relate to. If somebody gives me a bunch of statistics and, you know, I'm a fan, not of statistics, but of talking about them. Yeah, I have to admit that's, yeah.
Wendy:Fun at cocktail That's true.
Janine:Why I don't get invited. At any rate. Yeah, so you tell someone a story though and you watch their brain. If you look at, you may be familiar with these studies, but if you look at two people and they talk to each other and they're telling, one person is telling a story, the neurons link up. There's a connection there that's literally neuron based and brain based.
Janine:And so, you're synced, right? And so, we've kind of lost that.
Wendy:Yeah, would you call that empathy?
Janine:There is an aspect of it, yes, absolutely. I'm glad you noticed that. There's, well, without getting too science y about it, there are mirror neurons in our brain. And that's what's responsible for, like, if you're watching a scary movie, you're in that experience because of mirror neurons. It's the biological basis for empathy.
Wendy:Oh, I just got this crazy, crazy ass chill. I can I take a little side trip for a second and
Janine:watch Absolutely? Let's that
Wendy:that chill. So I just finished writing a a novel. It's speculative fiction.
Janine:So it's a little fantasy,
Wendy:and it's a near future sci fi. And it's about a mind virus of deception.
Janine:Oh my god. That sounds fascinating. It really does.
Wendy:I I it was a bear to write.
Janine:Yeah.
Wendy:We're editing right now, I describe the virus as having this sort of silver metallic hue like a mirror.
Janine:Okay.
Wendy:So that Yeah. One way to see it, my protagonist can see it, is in the eyes of the person who's infected. So there's like a silver sheen in their eyes. So you end up seeing yourself in the eyes of the person. Mhmm.
Wendy:When they're speaking, deception Yeah. Then you see yourself in the deception or you mirror it. I mean, that's like a subtext. Hopefully, the reader, if I have any readers of that book when it comes out.
Janine:Course you will. That's a fascinating topic. I would definitely read it.
Wendy:Thank you. Yeah. It's kind of, yeah, it's shape shifty and a virus needs a host, right? So the story has to fit the host. Yeah.
Wendy:Anyway.
Janine:So, they can see, right, they can see themselves in their own practice of, yeah. Wow.
Wendy:That's how it travels. That's how it.
Janine:From person to person. That's fascinating.
Wendy:So there's an entrainment to it.
Janine:Mhmm. Well, know, I mean, that is not too far off the mark neurologically speaking.
Wendy:For real?
Janine:Yeah. And even there's there's even there's mirror neurons in the animal kingdom like whales, dolphins, these highly sensitive and intelligent creatures. They really lose their health if they're not with other species. And they've shown that. But I mean, it's, it's amazing that there is a biological, and that is an adaptive trait, right?
Janine:So, that ensures the survival of our species to care about each other.
Wendy:Doctor. Yeah, absolutely. Doctor.
Janine:Right. So much so that we say, person that doesn't have that is said to be more isolated, more, not as much isolated, but lacking in empathy. That's like a pathological. Their brains are a little different.
Wendy:Doctor. Brain disorder.
Janine:Doctor. Yeah, yeah. So fascinating.
Wendy:Doctor. All right, I took you off topic. So, were talking about mirror neurons.
Janine:Doctor. Yeah.
Wendy:Doctor. In relationship to critical thinking.
Janine:Doctor. I was talking, I got, yeah, I did kind of sway over to the mirror neurons, but we were, I was talking about how that we've lost connection with each other. Okay. And like Ken Burns, for example, he would tell a story and that would help us link each other. Even if you're a different ethnicity, a different political party, you're able to connect on a human level when someone tells a story, for example, or an anecdote, right?
Janine:And we've kind of lost that if we're, if we're so separate in our own echo chamber, our own AI kind of funnel. Yeah. And we've forgotten that we are more alike than we are different. That the experiences of me here in the East Coast is not much different than the middle of the country and the West of the country and Guam. Right.
Janine:I think it's true what Kennedy said, like we all cherish our children's futures, we all breathe the same air. But the point that I was talking about with mirror neurons is that when you tell someone a story and they're in front of you and they're engaged in that story and they're listening actively, which that's another thing that has been kind of, that has decreased is that active listening, paying attention to each other, is the brains are synced. Okay. Which is fascinating. Yeah.
Wendy:Alright.
Janine:So we gotta vie for attention. Yeah. You know? We've gotta vie for it. It's like a struggle a little bit.
Wendy:Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. I mean, this is such rich territory to me. There's like so many directions we can go in.
Janine:Yeah.
Wendy:Alright. So your research uncovered that critical thinking.
Janine:It's taken some hits. And there, as it relates to, so in other words, it's correlated. So just to be clear, it's connected to it. So it's not caused by. In other words, it's connected to the more social media that's consumed, the more reality television that is consumed on a regular basis, the less a person is able to think critically and that rises to a level of statistical significance, particularly the reality television, which is interesting.
Janine:Probably because it's been more of a venue for a longer period of time than the
Wendy:Than social media.
Janine:Yeah. Yeah.
Wendy:It is kind of like that train wreck thing. You you can't help but look.
Janine:Oh, no. It's true. It hijacks your brain. Like, just it seizes your brain. It seizes your attention, weeds everything out.
Janine:It's a perfect distraction.
Wendy:Was your research able to uncover what it was about watching reality TV that has that impact? Like what is it doing to a person or even social media?
Janine:Yeah, so when we look at any screen, okay, it changes our brainwave to an extent. We slip into a more relaxed brainwave state that is more receptive. So we're receiving, I mean, that's why they spend so much money on these commercials during like high viewing times like the Super Bowl.
Wendy:So, it's like hypnosis?
Janine:It is a type it is a type of psych, okay, so I'm a hypnotherapist too and that, I'm glad you brought that up. It's a type of light, light trance.
Wendy:So it's like suggestive.
Janine:Yes, exactly. Yes. A person under hypnosis is, well, the definition is a focused state of awareness where they're open to suggestion. You're open to suggestion, but that's deep, deep relaxation. There has to be an induction and all that.
Janine:So with these mediums, just the screen itself, okay, it puts you into a receptive state where you are more open to suggestion. Okay. Whatever is being programmed. So this is really important that people understand exactly, right, because a fish in water thinks the whole world
Janine:is wet. Yeah. A fish in water thinks the whole world is wet and everybody's doing it. So it's ubiquitous and it doesn't seem like it's a problem, but it is a problem because it's changing our brains. It's changing the way we think. It's changing the way we speak. It's changing the way we write.
Janine:So it's, it's quite huge in its impact. And by that, I mean, like, the mediums that we're talking about, the social media, the reality television. And what they do is they grab you. They grab your attention. A lot of times they're high conflict and that engages an ancient part of your brain that doesn't think and reacts.
Wendy:That's what I wanted to really get to, right? That more primitive part of our brains that is engaging. And can you talk about what that entails? Like what that looks like for any of
Janine:us? Sure.
Wendy:When that part of us is kind of front and center?
Janine:Yes. Yeah, absolutely. So, this part of the brain, I mean, we share with the most ancient animals on earth and it's a wonderful part of the nervous system. An excellent, it keeps us safe. It helps us to be aroused.
Janine:It helps us to enjoy like blaze and wonderful things. So it's our emotion center, okay? But it's also a part of the fight or flight response. So this ancient part of the brain, okay, is our limbic system. It's our amygdala, okay?
Janine:That just means Greek for almond. It's a tiny almond shaped part of the brain that is our emotion center, but also fear. And so when we think the part of the brain that's being used is this newer part, the cortex, the part I'm holding my hand on the top of my head, specifically my forehead, our frontal lobe area. But our cortex, the outer layer, the gray part that's folded in, that's new in terms of human evolution. It's only like 200 to 230,000 years old compared to the amygdala, which is ancient.
Janine:So the amygdala and the primitive brain will always overpower the thinking part of the brain because it needs to keep you safe. It needs to, because of survival, have a greater influence. And when this part of the brain, when our brains are being formed, our environment was very different. It was what was called an immediate return environment. Like the flood either happened or it didn't.
Janine:The storm either happened or it didn't, or the animal either got us or it didn't. It was immediate.
Wendy:Right.
Janine:We didn't have chance to sit around and wait and we're the descendants of all those warriors. So, it's much more powerful and it literally shuts off the thinking part.
Wendy:So, is that always the case? It's either one or the other or can they work
Janine:in No. They work in conjunction and when you're in a low level of arousal, okay, you can see something and it can spike that ancient part of the brain and you can get excited. But normally we have it under control unless there's like an anxiety disorder of some kind, or even a mood disorder that goes in the other direction of decreased intensity. But it's still, it's still that part of the brain that's involved with regulation, emotional regulation. In the, in that case, then their systems are more hyper aroused and they have a harder time extracting out of the, out of the fight or flight response.
Janine:But baseline, it works in a symbiosis. The brain is wonderfully interactive. But when it comes to these mediums, a hypersensationalized conflict, encouraging conflict like some, not all of the reality television programming does, and social media as well, when we tap into that, it doesn't take long to take us out of thinking, active thinking, and put us into receptivity and put us into anger, put us into super funny. And it's like this emotional roller coaster where the thinking part of the brain kind of takes a backseat, kicks its feet up,
Wendy:and just pushes the Goes a short
Janine:holiday. Yeah.
Wendy:Can you talk about the addictive nature of those kinds of mediums?
Janine:Yes. I'm glad you brought this up, Wendy, because of the insidious nature of our phones and social media and conflict ridden reality television. They are addictive because they do engage that primitive part of the brainstem and the hindbrain. Okay. We don't realize that it's happening.
Janine:If you wake up and the first thing you look at is your phone before you do anything else, and you have to have it with you, and you well, I think we all kind of panic if we think we lost our phone. But if there's an intensity, if you find yourself on your phone, or if you find yourself switching from one medium to another, like I'm not on my phone, but I'm watching The Real Housewives of whatever, or wherever, and I'm just involved in a different kind of conflict ridden medium, then you're conditioning that hyper vigilant part of your brain to stay at a more heightened level at the expense of other parts of the brain that think, that reason, that discern, okay, that distinguish, that question. So it's conditioning over time. And so the brain is plastic. And we know now, the term is neuroplasticity, and I'm sure you've heard of it, that basically the brain is plastic.
Janine:And the neurons change how they talk to each other based on experience, based on the things we do a lot. So that's the insidious nature of the addictive component.
Wendy:You're suggesting that because of the addictive nature, it's actually transforming the wiring of your brain?
Janine:Yes. Yes. Studies have shown that if you start doing a new activity, say it's juggling, right? You just, you pick up juggling. After two to three days of practicing this, okay, the visual centers that detect motion in your occipital lobe in the back of your brain change.
Janine:Those cortical spaces become thicker. So, that's very fast to only two to three days, okay? It's a slight change, but it's still a change. So, when you think about the hours and hours of time, and that's another thing, time just slips away. Mean, what a time suck.
Janine:If I go on Reels, for example, which I do sometimes, I say to myself, okay, I'm going to go on Reels. Note the Right. I note the time. Right? I say, okay, it's whatever, 10:00.
Janine:And I say, I'm gonna do it. I'm gonna let myself do it. I'm gonna let my brain go on vacay, and I'm gonna go on reels. And of course, you know, you know what you're gonna see because it's all the filter, right? Yep.
Janine:The algorithm. And then I come out of it. And then I'm like a half hour older and I haven't accomplished, you know, what have I done? Right?
Wendy:Yeah. So that's what
Janine:I mean.
Wendy:And what have you learned? And yeah.
Janine:I might've laughed a little and done so on. But again, that's what I mean. It slips away because the blood goes out of this part of the brain and it goes into a different part and that's the hook.
Wendy:Okay.
Janine:It's the hook. We don't realize time just, it slips away.
Wendy:So, the blood goes out of the frontal lobe and into?
Janine:That, that happens more if you're upset, right? If you're, you know the feeling, like if you get, if you see something online and you're upset and you're like, I'm going to pound the keyboard and let them know and show them whatever. You're in that moment, right? Right. Where you're you're doing like a rant or something on on whatever social media and that moment, the the blood does leave the thinking part, okay?
Janine:Because you're upset. And that's why it's so hard to control. And it enters into the ancient part. And then you're in the grip of, okay, that primitive need for safety. And you're not necessarily thinking.
Janine:You're not using this part of the brain logic and reason.
Wendy:Right. So it's not too far a stretch then to look at the current state of American culture and, I mean, you can also expand out to other cultures because you hear yeah. Trends and such that this is playing a role, perhaps, in how the device is?
Janine:Absolutely.
Wendy:Okay. It's, I know it's tricky territory to talk about, but
Janine:No, it, it, yeah, 100%. Like, it is very Now, there's been times, obviously, in our nation's history that we've been polarized, that we've gone through a civil war. I mean, obviously, there's been times that we've been very polarized, but there is a, there's a level now that is added to where trust and, and fear have really risen and afraid of the other, the quote other, right? And that, what we were talking about earlier in the podcast, that idea that we're more alike than we are different is all but forgotten. I know.
Wendy:It's very clear and sad.
Janine:Doctor. Yeah. Yeah. And these these algorithms, okay, unless there is responsible technology, which there is a much there's a push for that. I don't know if saw The Social Dilemma, but that was an excellent show.
Wendy:Tristan Harris is doing a lot of work with that.
Janine:Doctor. Right. Responsible. Yeah. Which we need.
Janine:We, we, if nothing to balance this equation that's so tipped to, to polarize people to, to get them to not even think about, like, okay, so you see a R or a D at the end of a name and then instantly it's like, oh, they suck.
Wendy:Yep, exactly. It's just closed. Judgement is made.
Janine:Judge and jury and condemn her and all in one. All in one.
Wendy:And you don't even know the person's story. You don't
Janine:know Right.
Wendy:How they got there. It's Yeah. It's unsettling. Definitely unsettling.
Janine:Right.
Wendy:And a head scratcher too. I mean, I have been finding myself scratching my head a lot. Yeah. Maybe I can attribute it to the fact that I don't have a cell phone.
Janine:I Wow. Yeah. That's good.
Wendy:That's the reaction, I guess. Like, either how do you manage that or wow, I wish. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I have an iPad.
Wendy:Yeah. I'm not very good with the social media, so I don't do a lot of that. But I I have gotten on the reels on Instagram and, yeah, it's like, oh, shit.
Janine:Really am.
Wendy:What Janine's talking about.
Janine:Like, oh my god. I'm a goner. Yeah. And it's not, it doesn't have anything to do with intelligence. This is behavior psychology at its, at its best.
Wendy:Which is good to know, right?
Janine:Yeah. It's, it really is. Like, we're no more evolved than like the neighborhood Rottweiler or something because we're just But
Wendy:that, what you just said, levels the playing field though, so it's not specific to Not
Janine:at all.
Wendy:It's everyone.
Janine:Having a brain.
Wendy:Yeah, okay.
Janine:That's it. Yeah.
Wendy:Man, all right.
Janine:Absolutely. And that's what contributes to the addictive nature of it too. Basically, now we all have different talents and abilities, but basically our primitive ancient brain is the same for everybody. It's the same for everybody. Yeah.
Janine:So we're all, we're on the same boat when it comes to that. And I do find that phone fasts are good to practice. So, you're not having a phone is like, you know, obviously you can get on in the world without having one.
Wendy:It's probably going to get trickier and trickier as time goes on.
Janine:Yeah, yeah.
Wendy:Let me just add another little. As you were presenting the webinar, however long ago it was now, I was thinking about because I taught at the local community college for like fifteen years and really enjoyed it. I would teach the weird classes.
Janine:That's
Wendy:cool. Science and spirituality, and I created a course called the psychology of consciousness. And, I I taught a humanities course called the vampire and literature, film, and culture. And then more recently Wow.
Janine:That's so cool.
Wendy:More recently, I taught world mythology
Janine:Mhmm.
Wendy:Through the English department. The last semester I taught, which was in the spring of twenty two, it was torture. Really? Yeah. It was really hard.
Wendy:It was in person. Yeah. I preferred it to be able to look at people's faces. Right. I'm a real discussion heavy teacher.
Janine:Mhmm. Yeah. That's good.
Wendy:They would not talk. They wouldn't engage with each other. Even on breaks, they would pick up their phones, they wouldn't engage with with each other. They would just engage with their phones. The kicker, I don't know if it was just the culture of that classroom, but I also No.
Wendy:I was starting to see that the critical thinking issue because Yeah. World mythology can bring up some it can be loaded, especially when religion is brought into it.
Janine:Well, you have to think. Mhmm.
Wendy:And I I had a student say in the first class that, and I apologize if I'm offending anyone with this statement, that I thought it was I thought it I thought it was unsettling, is that the the student said that science has proven that the bible is true.
Janine:Oh, Jesus. Oh, boy. And I was like it's to hear.
Wendy:And she ended up dropping the course.
Janine:Well, I'm not surprised. Sorry, but
Wendy:A few weeks in. Yeah, no, was good because she was she was constantly pushing back and disrupting the class. She was the only one who would talk. Anyway, yeah, it was really challenging, and I was having my every five year review, so I had my hiring coordinator come in to observe me teach, and I made a joke before class started. I said, make me look good.
Janine:Yeah.
Wendy:It's like crickets. You know, I'm like, oh, this is good. I had warned her ahead of time that this class does not engage. They they were champs. They engaged like they never had before.
Wendy:Wow. Then when the observer got laughed, of the students said, Isn't it funny how we talked?
Janine:Did you notice that?
Wendy:Did you notice that? And then they stopped after that. That was it. No more. They
Janine:went back to
Wendy:Yeah, they went back to not talking. They just put on a show, which is, oh, come on. I don't want to don't want to teach like this. So I was like, alright, maybe after fifteen years, I should call it a day. But
Janine:yeah, it has definitely changed.
Wendy:Yeah, and that's what I was noticing. They were less interested, less curious, quicker to have reactions to the material that was being presented and harder to present opposing information.
Janine:Yeah. All the things that we talk about with critical thinking, just scary.
Wendy:I just didn't think I could do my job well.
Janine:You love to teach though, it sounds like, you see. And you love the conversation, you love the dialogue, and you love to impart information, right, in a learning environment. Yeah. And that's a good thing, but you've got to have if you love to teach, you've got to have students who love to learn. And if you don't, like, it's really hard.
Janine:Yeah. It's really hard.
Wendy:Are you noticing any of that in your teaching?
Janine:Unfortunately, yes. Okay. Yes. And it's very hard. I've actually changed some things because I recognize the capacity is not there.
Janine:And that's hard to accept. But as an educator, I have a responsibility like you did. But at the same time, I re- just like what you said, I, I remember looking at the class, one class that, I mean, it was the first day. And I tell them right off the bat, no phones. You have to have your phones put away.
Wendy:Yep. Me too.
Janine:All electric devices put away. Put your computers away. Because I don't know if they're watching Netflix over there. I mean, all of it. And then it's just like, okay, they, they're shooting daggers with their eyes, which is fine.
Janine:But you set the tone. And then as I get into the syllabus and I start to talk about the content, I start to ask them questions. They just look at me and they're just fascinated that I expect them to talk. I expect them. And it's almost like an insult that I expect them, not all of them, okay, but a lot.
Janine:Right. And we're doing a disservice to an extent in schools because the phones in the schools, not a good thing, okay. And just, it, it's decreasing their, like the trends that you saw. This actually was the cohort that I focused on in my study, 18 to 24 year olds. They are on the cusp of new and emerging trends.
Janine:So, they're a very common cohort to study.
Wendy:Okay.
Janine:Of course, were other, there were other ages throughout the study, but that was the main focus. So, the study focused on that age group so that we know the impact. And sadly, again, the critical thinking has decreased with the more content that we've discussed increase. And now it's even more, it's even more than it was when my study was published in 2021.
Wendy:And that's on the developing brain because that cohort that you studied, their brains aren't fully formed yet.
Janine:Excellent point. We now know that it takes upwards of the mid to late 20s for the, for the part of the brain, the last part of the brain to form, which is the frontal lobe area, which as you know, is responsible for executive function, long term planning, thinking before you speak, the consequences of actions, a lot of the things that you saw in your classroom. And it's a detriment. Yeah.
Wendy:One of the questions I wanted to ask too is that the impact of these various media, reality TV, social media
Janine:Yeah.
Wendy:Is it age specific, or is it across the board that it impacts all brains, no matter what the age?
Janine:It's a great question. So, younger that a human brain, the younger they start, the greater the impact, because that that's when the brain is forming from zero to five. There's dramatic changes in the brain and nervous system. There's things called blooming and pruning. That's what accounts for the increased brain weight.
Janine:So, literally the brain is growing and changing in key areas involved with connection and the speed of processing. It's creating the foundation for that.
Wendy:Okay.
Janine:So if I see a five year old with a phone, I mean, and why is it that there's no warnings out there? Like, of the other stuff that's connected with kids, there's like a warning. Even like a a card. I was looking for a card the other day. Like a birthday card and I see like the googly eyes.
Janine:Uh-huh. It's like warning. Your child could. Choke on these. Swallow the googly eye.
Wendy:Yeah. Right.
Janine:And it's like okay. Yes. True. But we're handing, I saw, we were out to eat, I saw a baby. Like couldn't have been more than eight months with a phone.
Wendy:Get out.
Janine:So I get it. I have a, I understand, like I know it's hard to raise kids. I know that. But yeah. Okay.
Janine:And I'm thinking about that baby's brain in that moment. What they're seeing and what's being sucked out. Not what the child is seeing, but what's being sucked, what's being arrested in terms of development. Okay. Because that's what's happening.
Janine:Like, not to put a fine point on it. That is what's happened, you see.
Wendy:Okay. So, detrimental definitely for young people.
Janine:Yes. And, okay, so older, like I'm 50. So like older is, so you haven't had that experience during the develop, the critical period, which is from zero to age seven. And then afterward is the sensitive period in terms of developmental growth of the brain and nervous system and, and the body as a whole, but the, we're specifically focusing on the brain and nervous system, which animates everything in the, in the human body. So, afterward, like we didn't have, you, you didn't have such a great impact during those developmental stages.
Janine:But as we get older, we've noticed that when, okay, there are, there are changes because of the brain's sensitivity to experience and what we do regularly. There are changes.
Wendy:That's the neuroplasticity you're talking about.
Janine:Yes, yeah. Alright. Absolutely.
Wendy:Okay, so, pretty grim picture. But because of neuroplasticity, that means the brain can change at any age.
Janine:Absolutely. Absolutely, and it's a wonderful thing, too.
Wendy:Have you been suggesting for folks who are concerned about this? Like, what kinds of things can people do? You already talked about taking kind of a break from your phone.
Janine:Doctor. Yeah.
Wendy:Doctor. A fast, you called it.
Janine:Yeah. And people are like, how is that? No. I mean, if I, depending on the age group that I talk to, right, or suggest it to, I get different responses. But I'm very much for practical solutions, right?
Janine:Just the idea of leaving your phone across the room. I practice this often. I'll charge it, but I'll charge it across the room. When it's not in your immediate like seating area and you have to actually get up and go across the room, that's a big, it helps. It helps.
Janine:And I've helped people decrease their phone addiction this way. Clients.
Wendy:Okay.
Janine:You know, people that I've talked to. Yeah. So leave it across the room because we just subconscious, we'll just pick it up. We'll just pick it up without any real reason in mind. We'll just pick it up and look at it and start scrolling and
Wendy:One of the things I've noticed, I was just sitting with some friends the other day and one of my friends had her phone on the floor. We were sitting on the floor and the screen lit up.
Janine:Mhmm.
Wendy:And immediately she went from the conversation to the screen and looked at the screen.
Janine:Yeah. Yeah.
Wendy:And then was disengaged.
Janine:Pam loves dog. Yeah. Exactly. We are. We are that on the phone.
Wendy:Yeah. That's addiction.
Janine:Yeah. So, we define addiction as the loss of autonomy, we no longer have control. The thing has control.
Wendy:That's a hard thing to admit, right? I mean, that's why
Janine:Yeah. People don't admit it.
Wendy:Folks don't want to admit they have addiction to any substance or behavior.
Janine:Right. Right.
Wendy:It's hard to admit that. It takes a lot of humility. Yeah. And also I don't want to give this up. I like this.
Janine:Yes. And the pleasure component can't be underestimated. Yeah. Like it's a dopamine. It's it's like, and dopamine is is a wonderful chemical and so is serotonin, but the thing is, is that it gives us the illusion of connection, right?
Janine:We're not connected.
Wendy:Oh, that's a great point. Can you talk a little bit more about that before we get back into more sort of remedies or things that people can do? Doctor.
Janine:Sure. Yeah. And I do want to talk about anecdotes. Yeah. It gives us the illusion that we are connected.
Janine:But as I talked about the example before, when you tell a story, you tell a story and your brain links up with the person that you're listening to because you're involved in a meaningful level. You're involved in the story. You're literally connected with what they're saying, okay? So, we've lost an element of that when we're alone, physically alone, or when we're surrounded by other people but we're on our phones.
Wendy:Yeah.
Janine:We we are immersed rather in the experience that we're having in the phone and we're alone in that experience even if we're connected to the rest of the world.
Wendy:There's the illusion that it is a true connection even though it's not
Janine:a true Yeah. It's Yeah. Largely it's artificial.
Wendy:So when someone is scrolling through TikTok or Instagram Reels or on Facebook, whatever they're called, I don't know what the fuck. Yeah.
Janine:No, you got it right.
Wendy:What what what's going on with chemistry? What is the addictive nature of these? However, the really mini little why are those so addictive compared to a longer YouTube video?
Janine:Right. So we have the perception and of course the perception creates the reality. We have the perception that because these these entities out there think like me or are in my, my wavelength that I'm connected to, this person gets me. But it's not a you don't have to deal with the bumps of real communication and real relationships, right?
Wendy:So, it like a weird kind of confirmation bias in a way?
Janine:In a way, that's a really good point, yeah. We seek out what we already think, what we already believe, or what we don't realize that we're not thinking.
Wendy:And the algorithm will support Oh,
Janine:yeah, absolutely. Yeah, it funnels it right to us, you see. And so it's not real. Real, real connection and real meaningful connection. You feel it, you feel sometimes upset, sometimes happy, sometimes like I gotta work at this a little bit and there's there's effort involved.
Janine:It's not just this prepackaged thing that arrives at your doorstep without any without any effort at all or earned. And I can depend on this friend that I have in my life. Right? And so we have this false sense that I can depend on the phone to make me happy. I can depend on these these Facebook friends that I don't even know where they live or where they are in the world.
Wendy:Or if they're real.
Janine:Exactly. That's just a couple of seconds. Right? But it's a false sense of security. It doesn't make us feel it's not durable.
Wendy:Okay.
Janine:Okay. So in that sense it's not yeah.
Wendy:Yeah it's it's just not.
Janine:Okay. All right. I mean I was in the ER I didn't call on a Facebook friend you know.
Wendy:Yeah, yep. Totally didn't. That's a great, great point. Yeah. Yeah.
Wendy:Yeah. When your house is on you don't go on social media.
Janine:Right. Yeah. We gotta remember that. We gotta remember that. People need each Yeah, that
Wendy:is very true. Okay. So then, let's go back to anecdotes.
Janine:Sure. Yep. So, there's people out there that I've researched, okay, that I included in the presentation that you saw that advocate a complete cessation, like just get off of it. Just have a complete fast. And I understand their premise and it does work.
Janine:You immediately start to feel differently without so much technology in your life, and conflict from reality TV. However, I don't think it's a durable solution. I don't think it's long term. I don't think it's practical either. I advocate balance.
Janine:I advocate- Like moderation. Moderation, yeah. And noticing. See, this one of the things that it gets depleted so quickly with the use of these mediums too much is that we just don't realize we're not paying attention. We lose our ability to focus.
Janine:We're not paying attention. So, start to pay attention to how long you're on the phone. There's actually things in the phone that can tell you. Like, you really, you've been on your phone for nine hours, or you have total hours of screen time, like it'll tell you. And just start to notice.
Janine:So pay attention, awareness. That increases, okay, the increased awareness is the first step. And then start to implement little habits that can decrease the connection to these things and that will start to chip away at the addiction. Start to bring into your life meaningful connection, in person activities, being in environments where the phone is not required. So those types of things are really good to weave into your life, weave into your day, like placing the phone out of sight, even placing it out of sight, okay, is a really good way.
Janine:So, James Clear talks about this in his book, Atomic Habits, that you want, if you want to decrease in activity, right? Make it difficult and hard. So, it's like you make that, you make the steps to that activity, to doing that activity difficult. And if you want to increase an activity, you make it simple and easy. So we're trying to decrease phone use, for example.
Janine:Place the phone in another part of the room, charge it across the room or in another room, keep it out of sight if you happen to be working on something so that you don't look at it and you don't see it, and you're not constantly reminded of it, you remove the cue. That's what you do. You remove the cue, and then you have a much greater chance of doing something else when you feel agitated or you feel like you wanna be distracted, or you could just let yourself be distracted. Imagine that. Just let yourself be bored.
Janine:And that's the thing I just remembered from your presentation that I really wanted
Wendy:to hit on too was what you mentioned about boredom.
Janine:Yeah.
Wendy:And the importance of being okay with being bored.
Janine:Yeah. Nobody's bored anymore. Like, it's not gonna hurt you, I promise.
Wendy:Why is it important to have boredom in our lives?
Janine:If you look at a brain on boredom, it starts to blossom like a flower. It's like you start to all
Wendy:of
Janine:these areas become wonderfully interactive and you start to imagine something to do. It basically increases your imagination, which is so important in all aspects of our life. Watching kids. Kids are perfect examples, right? So you give them this toy at Christmas time, like a five year old, because they're in that stage of imagination.
Janine:You you give them a toy and it's like a prepackaged toy and it's like already completed. Those those are just not good. And then the kid gets bored very quickly. And what do they do? They start to play with the wrapper.
Janine:Start to play with the box. Or they'll create something to do out of seeming nothing in their in their surroundings. What's happened to that? Right. Like, that's a good thing.
Janine:It's a good thing. Your brain needs boredom. Needs it.
Wendy:Okay.
Janine:It's a good brain food.
Wendy:I'm so glad I remembered to ask you about that and to bring that. Yeah. Thanks. Because it's so important. It's really important.
Wendy:The lack of tolerance of boredom is I think what leads people to, like, when they're trying to fast with their phones.
Janine:Yeah. Yeah.
Wendy:I don't know if that's like a withdrawal symptom or what, but it's like, I
Janine:No. It's inversely connected to addiction. Okay. Yeah, you're right. Yeah.
Janine:It's like I have to increase my tolerance and question it. Yeah, it's an opportunity to question why am I so uncomfortable with boredom? Why am I so uncomfortable with sitting?
Wendy:Weaning seems to be the way to go. It I mean, it it makes sense to do that rather than, like, the cold shock therapy of just Right. Tossing your, phone into the ocean.
Janine:Don't recommend that. Right. You know, I mean, because then you're likely to try to replace it with something else. Got to increase that muscle. Think of it as a muscle.
Janine:Like if you, if you slowly every day incrementally add these different antidotes, add these different techniques and habits into your life, then before you know it, you're spending less time, you're noticing more, You're going out into the world and noticing the world, like that's forgotten too.
Wendy:There's something
Janine:like zombies on their phone, you know, and they're completely, they have the beats on, their ears are totally covered, their eyes are on the phone and it's dangerous. Yeah.
Wendy:Oh yeah. Yeah. And it also makes me think about discomfort, like being okay with being uncomfortable with the lack of stimulation.
Janine:Yeah. Right. Right. You gotta relearn.
Wendy:It's okay to be uncomfortable.
Janine:Exactly. Exactly. I mean, I would encourage questioning that too. Like, why am I uncomfortable? Other than, like, I don't have I don't have something to entertain me right now.
Janine:But why why am I uncomfortable? What is that about? Like, why can't I just sit?
Wendy:Great point. Yeah. You also mentioned some apps that could help people Yeah. Kind of regulate their screen time.
Janine:Yes. And I I include this in the antidote section because we can use the phones constructively. We can use the phone to help us with the phone, you know, and Exactly. Yeah, exactly. But I think one of them is Pomodoro.
Janine:Pomodoro is an app that if you want to increase like say your study time or your reading time or whatever it is that incorporates like natural breaks, okay. And there's a part of the phone that you can program that lets you know it'll give you like a warning. Like you've been on this for you've been on Facebook, for example, for for this amount of time. I have a function in my phone that's set up that if I hold my phone too close to my face, everything shuts off. Sometimes it really gets to Yeah.
Janine:Well, shuts off. The screen goes white and it reads, Your iPhone is too close and you have to pull it away from you. I have to pull it away from my face. And then the function key shows up that lets me say, Okay, it's far enough.
Wendy:Can. Fascinating. It's like your phone has its own set of personal boundaries.
Janine:Yes. But you've got we've got to implement them, you know?
Wendy:You have to set them up. But
Janine:then I'm made aware of how quickly this can happen. Like, I'm holding it too close. It's not good for my eyes. Oh. You know?
Janine:It's not good for my head. I have too much. Yeah.
Wendy:Yeah. Yeah. Okay.
Janine:Yeah.
Wendy:One of the other things you mentioned in the presentation that you did was
Janine:Mhmm.
Wendy:How valuable reading is.
Janine:Yeah. Yeah. And right off the bat, I admit my bias. Okay? I mentioned early, early on, my father took me to the library when I was very young.
Janine:But bias aside, reading has been shown, and I looked at this in my research, reading is wonderful brain food because you are creating a picture, especially with fiction, but with even with academic reading to less of an extent, it encourages the creative process and it engages left and right hemispheres. Okay, so the right hemisphere is like right in the moment and what's happening now, it's more associated with creativity. The left hemisphere is more analytical and is like past, present, past and future, and planning language, all of that. It wonderfully integrates the two. The visual cortex kind of has this mini movie playing of what's going on with what the author is trying to impart and so much more than that.
Janine:Like you are able to understand, say for example, the book nineteen eighty four written by George Orwell. In one of the research articles that I read, the teacher is talking about the book in class, but she's also asking the students who have read chapters in the book and she's asking them to draw parallels between, okay, so we're talking about totalitarianism. George Orwell is talking about that in the book. How can we relate that to what is perhaps happening in certain parts of the world today? And asking them to draw from a book that was written in 1940 after World War II and comparing that to now and you know, so many things are happening that encourage critical thinking.
Janine:Absolutely, yeah. Makes It's wonderful. Yeah, it's a wonderful, unfortunately, one of the articles that I read was called Reversing Redecide.
Wendy:What is, what?
Janine:Yeah. So, it's the decline in reading that has happened. People are reading less and less and less and less. Alarming statistics. Alarming.
Wendy:Not a great time to be releasing a book, but
Janine:Well, I did too. You gotta
Wendy:do it. People seem to be more drawn to audio books. Yeah. I don't know if they're equivalent. I mean, I think they probably hearing a story versus reading a story.
Wendy:Don't know.
Janine:Both are good. Okay. Both are very good. They engage the brain. Okay.
Janine:I I listen to books too. I read books with my eyes and I hold the physical book. But I also listen to books, you know, and there's some books that
Wendy:You're a caveman. Yeah.
Janine:I know, I must be. I'm like a unicorn. No species, but, no, it's wonderful for the brain. It's wonderful, but the downturn of reading has really, I do think that there's been the rise in technology has hit humanities pretty hard.
Wendy:Yeah, it's something. And then we didn't even get into AI, but that's a whole other, it's a whole other thing.
Janine:Yeah, it is. The moment these machines start dreaming might be the time to be really scared because there's that's consciousness, like the animals. You mentioned consciousness and your interest in it. I am too. Animals can dream and that's what makes us very similar.
Janine:Okay, the animals. Computers can't dream. And I heard an AI tech friend of mine say yet. I'm like, I don't I don't think that's ever going to happen.
Wendy:My logical mind can't make sense of how that would come to pass. Right. Because I guess it, that begs the question of what is consciousness? Is it something that can be generated
Janine:Mhmm.
Wendy:Artificially Mhmm. In humans or any creature?
Janine:Yeah.
Wendy:I subscribe to the idea that that more kind of indigenous concept
Janine:Mhmm.
Wendy:And also through my direct experience that everything has intelligence
Janine:Yes.
Wendy:That you can be in relationship with
Janine:Yes. Plants Absolutely.
Wendy:Animals
Janine:Yes. I agree. The quantum.
Wendy:Is that a form of consciousness? Yeah. I would suggest it is. And I I mean, I think there are different types of consciousness. So it's tricky.
Wendy:Yeah. Tricky territory.
Janine:Yeah.
Wendy:Machine consciousness, I don't know about that. Like, I'm trying to imagine. I mean, if intelligence equates to consciousness is an important factor in it. Then I yeah. Who knows?
Wendy:I don't know.
Janine:It's interesting.
Wendy:I can't speak to it really. So, other than to kind of speculate.
Janine:Yeah, it's very interesting. But if the brain is the physical, the mind must be its its counterpart
Wendy:Non physical.
Janine:In the non physical, right? And so consciousness is, is there to an extent.
Wendy:I think there's both.
Janine:Yes. Yes.
Wendy:Like each cell has its own consciousness. Yes.
Janine:Right. Absolutely.
Wendy:That's an unconscious process. Like, we're not aware of what our cells Right. What processes they're engaged Merely go about doing. Yeah, but then we have this idea of a self and that's a whole different kind of consciousness. Yeah.
Wendy:An awareness Mhmm. Of you and me having this conversation and listening to the words. Right.
Janine:Right.
Wendy:Anyone who might be listening, they're listening and engaging Yeah. With the content that's different than your lung cells listening to a podcast. Right?
Janine:Right. And, but they, they have their own entity. They have their own entity within the entity within, and it's, it's, it's fascinating and amazing to think about that. And I've done a lot of, I'm interested in, in that as well, the metaphysical and the quantum, and it's, they're finding out more and more and more. And I think that when we, when we focus less going outward and focus going inward, we'll find out more.
Janine:We'll find out more about all of this.
Wendy:Imagine that.
Janine:Yeah. Yeah.
Wendy:All that wisdom is right there for any of us to access. It's just a matter of getting through the noise of our interior worlds, I think, because it's there. It's generating all the time insights and intuitions and stuff. Right. Noise gets in the way I think of us perceiving it.
Janine:It does. And there's so much vying for our attention. And so, you know, slowing down, like Andy said, there's more to life than increasing its speed. Sitting, being contemplative, noticing your life, noticing your day, noticing the energy of your life, going inward, Buddha says inquire within. That's very, these things are also, I think, antidotes to the noise that's out there.
Janine:Yeah.
Wendy:Beautiful. Before we wrap up, any other antidotes you hadn't mentioned yet that you think are worth bringing up?
Janine:Well, yeah, I would like to mention that if you're trying to Nature. Absolutely. Nature. Nature, your brain changes on nature. Being in nature helps connect you to your nature, I think, in a way that nothing else probably on earth can.
Janine:Meditation is wonderful for helping relax your body, relax your nervous system. We sleep to rejuvenate our brain and nervous system, not so much for the body, but to rejuvenate this wonderful system that we have. Meditation helps so much with that. And yes, being in nature is one of the best things. If you meditate in nature, you're getting like so many benefits all at once.
Janine:If you can do that. I encourage it daily.
Wendy:You're just doing your private practice, right?
Janine:I still do pre, I still do the presentation that you saw. I do that, those periodically. I talk about topics and present topics to schools, to administration. So, I'm very much involved with that. I enjoy imparting this information and I do my private practice with clients.
Janine:I teach meditation at the local YMCA, which I enjoy that very much. I teach yoga also at the YMCA. I teach yoga for free. No kidding. Doctor.
Janine:Out in nature. Yeah. During the pandemic, I did that all the time. Know, I have a group that I run where we go outside in nature, we hike and I taught yoga, invite people to come to yoga and yeah, because it's a wonderful unifying, relaxing thing to do. Absolutely.
Janine:So it's really, really good. So I love that too.
Wendy:And you're in Pennsylvania?
Janine:Yeah. I'm in the Philadelphia area. Yeah. A lot of woods around me.
Wendy:Philly. Yeah. All right. So, if someone wanted to reach out to you and get more information or maybe want you to present somewhere, like at a school somewhere or something?
Janine:Yeah, I appreciate you bringing that up. I have a website. It's just DrJanineOliver.com.
Wendy:Okay. I'll put that in the show notes so people can find it
Janine:Thank you.
Wendy:Easily. Thank you. I am so thankful to you for coming on and I think having an incredibly important conversation with me about this stuff.
Janine:Well, you are most welcome, Wendy, and I appreciate you. I appreciate the work that you do. I appreciate Lucid Cafe. I appreciate you giving me the opportunity to talk. It's been really great getting to know you and talk to you, and I really, really am glad that you you had me here.
Janine:I appreciate it. Are
Wendy:you still there? Even though it's not the easiest topic to look at, I sincerely hope that this information was helpful. I was amazed at how much Janine's findings captured what seems to be happening in American culture. So to learn more about Janine, her work, and her book, The Anxiety Cure, Practical Drug Free Ways to Rewire Your Brain, please visit doctor Janine Oliver dot com. Thank you so much for tuning in.
Wendy:I'll be back in a few weeks with a new episode on a topic that always confused the hell out of me, karma, which probably says a
Janine:lot about
Wendy:me. Until next time.
