Do You Have Enough? Rethinking Wealth & Worth with author Elizabeth Husserl
This is Wendy Halley, and you're listening to Lucid Cafe. You know what just hit me? It's June. I haven't gotten used to writing 2025, and we're almost halfway through the year. And yet, here we are mid June with another episode of Lucid Cafe.
Wendy:Thanks for joining me. I wonder if there's a podcast award for the best introduction to an episode because if there is, I'd probably get it for this one. I'm clearly really good at this. Speaking of time, guess what else snuck up on me? Would you believe that this season is winding down?
Wendy:There's either one or two episodes of season seven left. What is happening? You know I've bitched about time before. I I won't bore you with my time is speeding up rant. Instead, I want to give my sincere thanks to everyone who listened to the last episode with my friend Claire about my book.
Wendy:Turned out to be a surprisingly popular episode and it appears as though people are buying my book, which I'm absolutely thrilled about and grateful for. So thank you for that. Okay. Let's shift gears and get to today's episode. Do you feel overwhelmed and intimidated by money?
Wendy:Dragged down by the complexity and abstraction of it? Do you often feel lack even though you make a good living and have a lot of material things? My guest Elizabeth Husserl offers a way to reshape your mindset about how you relate to money. In our conversation and in her new book, The Power of Enough Finding Joy in Your Relationship with Money, Elizabeth shares how our financial mindset influences our well-being and how entrenched financial systems can block our pursuit of true happiness. She also shares some perspectives in our conversation that may surprise you and are right up my alley.
Wendy:Elizabeth is a registered investment advisor representative, financial advisor, and co founder of Peak three sixty Wealth Management, a boutique wealth planning firm. She holds a BS in economics from Tulane University and an MA in East West psychology from the California Institute of Integral Studies where she has also taught as an adjunct professor. Her experience spans nonprofit work throughout The Americas, and she is a highly sought after speaker having led workshops at major tech companies, including Airbnb, Unity, and Google. Please enjoy my conversation with Elizabeth Husserall. Elizabeth, thanks so much for joining me.
Elizabeth:Wendy, it is such a pleasure to be here.
Wendy:Well, I mean, I don't know if anybody's going to be interested in this topic at all, because it's just it's not something that ever comes up for people.
Elizabeth:Can you imagine?
Wendy:I know. Let me start by saying that I've had the copy I received of your book on my reception area table here at my wellness center for some weeks now. And I lost count of how many people photographed the cover and then decided to buy it just based on the cover and then maybe glimpsing through some of it. So, I think you've hit on something here. Yeah.
Wendy:Yeah. So, what you've done is, in your book, is you're encouraging us to look at money in a different way. Before we get into that different way, I'd love to hear your perspective on how you would describe how most or maybe all of us see money in our society, in our culture.
Elizabeth:Yeah. Thank you, Wendy. I mean, that's such a great question, and it really hits to the core of the problem that I'm working through in the book, which is why is it that we have so much and yet we feel so poor? And why is it that we think money and wealth are the same thing? And it's a problem that I've been chewing on for, you know, I would say I was gonna say twenty years, but almost thirty years by now in working with people in their relationship to money and working in different communities, different cultures, and really being as like, why is it that we think wealth and money are the same thing?
Elizabeth:And how does that keep us on this rat race and this hustle of trying to accumulate more and feeling scarcity and really not just able to enjoy wealth as a state of well-being that we have access to at all times. And so when you were talking about the experience of people picking up the book, I feel like I got tears in my eyes, because it really does represent a passion project and a journey of thirty years in my own life, and I want to share that journey with others for them to take their journey into their relationship with money, clear up that interference so that we can experience wealth, not just accumulate it, can we experience wealth.
Wendy:Wonderful. Okay. So that takes us into because most of us will equate both words, money and wealth. Yeah. If I have a lot of money, I am wealthy.
Wendy:If I don't have a lot of money, I am not wealthy. So how do you differentiate the two?
Elizabeth:Yeah. Well, I mean, that's that is the core belief, and the antidote to it is really just first recognizing there's a difference. Right? And we and and redefining the terms and the language that we use to talk about money and redefining the terms and the language that we use to talk about wealth. Right?
Elizabeth:So we can talk about money in terms of its functions, right, its use. It is a tool, much like technology is a tool. Our phones are a tool. It is it is a technology that we use for exchange, and it is a technology that has some that has come to replace trust in some capacity, and that's where it starts to get confusing and hazy and icky. We're like, wait a second.
Elizabeth:Why is my trustworthiness based on my credit score? Right? And we can talk and unpack that a little bit more. But I think the key piece is that money has a role. And to some extent, even though this is hard for some people to stomach, its role can be neutral.
Elizabeth:Right? We we we rather scapegoat money and get really angry at it and get really upset at it. But what I tell people is that money is a tool. Our experience of wealth in the framework of how we define wealth connected to well-being is a state that we get to co create and co design. And I think as people and humans, we have the right and responsibility to start to readdress, redefine, re experience wealth, not just in our own lives, but as a society.
Elizabeth:And I think that's how we start to make some lasting impact and transformative change in the world is separating the two.
Wendy:Yeah. And that's a novel idea, at least from where I sit over here. I would love to hear more of your thoughts on trust, because that is so huge. Huge. And I think we all we all struggle with trust in varying ways, but particularly around our financial well-being.
Elizabeth:Yeah. And so, you know, let's do a little thought exercise and let's go back in time to when potentially our ancestor lived in smaller communities or even think of yourself in a community you're part of. Right? A work community, a school community, a friend community, a dance community, whatever you're part of. And when you think of yourself in that community, do people trust you because they know how much money than you have in your bank account?
Elizabeth:No. They probably don't know because we don't talk about money. Do they trust you based on the ways you have showed up in the relationship? Right? Usually, it's that.
Elizabeth:Once we build intimacy with people and relationships based on who we are and how we show up, how we give and receive, trust, right, is rooted in its correct place, which is that core stone of relationship. But in our modern culture, where we don't at times build those levels of intimate relationships, we are going through a pandemic of loneliness. So in our modern culture, when we're feeling lonely and isolated, money starts to replace intimacy when it comes to trust. And that's when it doesn't feel good. Right?
Elizabeth:And that's where we're like, wait a second. My credit score speaks volumes about me, but who's to say? Maybe I'm going through a really hard time, and maybe I had to default on a loan. That doesn't necessarily mean I'm trustworthy. What were the situations that caused that?
Elizabeth:Right? And so and and when we don't have the relationships with people, then we lose other barometers to build trust. And that's, again, where money really starts to have all these emotions and feelings in our lives. And so a really important piece well, and I'll I'll let you speak because I I can see actually, I'll stop there.
Wendy:What you're saying is so poignant because in the absence of connection with others, we place all this pressure then on money to fill that void.
Elizabeth:Yeah.
Wendy:That's not really fair or actually how things work, right? I mean Yeah. It's like a setup for disappointment consistently because money is not that thing.
Elizabeth:Right. And Wendy, you were speaking to I wanna say what triggers most people in my work with them, where there's a resistance. Right? We're like, oh, but it is easier to scapegoat money. It's easier to feel angry at my relationship to money, how it's not showing up, how it's complicated.
Elizabeth:Right? How there's not enough to pay for my bills. Like, all these and these are experiences that I have had personally where I'm like, shaking my hand. And I speak to them in my book. Right?
Elizabeth:I get super vulnerable and say, hey. My first conversation with money was really freaking hard. And money kinda told me, Elizabeth, back off. You're you're strangling me. Right?
Elizabeth:And it was such a wake up moment, Wendy, when we start to realize, oh, what am I actually angry about? Where where am I actually feeling lack and poverty and scarcity? And for sure, it can still be within the realm or or slice of financial stability. Right? Doesn't necessarily mean I have everything solved.
Elizabeth:But when I start to get really clear about what is my role in creating the financial dynamic I'm in, Right? I'm not trying to play a victim here. I'm trying to get really clear on how am I creating the situation, what are the list of questions I have that I need help answering, what pertains to money, and what doesn't. Right? When I first sat down and I'll say this.
Elizabeth:When I first sat down and had my conversation with money we'll talk about what that is. So when I sat down and had my conversation with money, I realized that after I told it how angry I was and how it's not showing up and shaking my fist, and Money responded saying, Elizabeth, stop strangling me. I need some space. My first reaction, Wendy, was like, Oh, I've had this conversation before with boyfriends. This is not the first time someone has told me they need a little bit of space in a relationship with me.
Elizabeth:Even with girlfriends. Right? There's people in my life where I like maybe I have anxious attachment. I like holding on tight. Being needy.
Elizabeth:Totally. Totally. And I was like, okay. Money, you're not the first one to tell me this. I know this is a pattern.
Elizabeth:What are you trying to tell me? And when we went back and forth in this conversation, I was like, oh, I'm trying to start a private practice after grad school. No one's taught me how to be an entrepreneur. I have no idea what I'm doing. I feel like I'm flailing.
Elizabeth:Let me just be human and be okay with that. I'm doing something that someone has not ever taught me how to do. I'm taking a financial risk, and it feels really insecure. And once I gave myself permission just to be with where I was in my financial journey, in my career, I was like, okay. Money, I'm not gonna waste any more time being angry at you.
Elizabeth:Let me get super clear on what I need to learn, how I'm gonna learn it, who in my world maybe has done this successfully so I could talk to them. And then you and I, Money, are gonna create a business plan so I can get super clear what do I need, right, to make this work? How much do I have to ask for you? Why is it so uncomfortable to charge people my full fee? Right?
Elizabeth:Now that it's a different conversation. And then I started to take responsibility for the ways that I was wasting a lot of time and energy in scapegoating money. When money was like, hey, I do wanna help, but what pertains to you and you building your business? And then tell me what is that you need me to do. And we don't do that.
Elizabeth:Right? We don't take responsibility for the ways that we're creating some of our financial situation. And I know a lot of people, Wendy, will tell me, but wait a second. But I got fired. Right?
Elizabeth:I got laid off. There's a lot of insecurity in the world right now when it comes to money. All of that is right, but what we can't let ourselves do is get stuck in that scarcity cycle because then all of us start all parts of us start to shut down. We all know what this feels like, and we can't access the other areas of wealth in our life that can help us see new possibilities, experience new opportunities, see things from a beginner's mind that can help move the needle in building wealth in our lives.
Wendy:What you're making me think of as you're talking is that, first of all, the whole idea of having a conversation with money is brilliant. And the fact that you're talking about talking with money suggests that it's a two way street, whereas where most of us sit, we're not having conversations with money. I don't even know if we realize we can do that.
Elizabeth:Right.
Wendy:And I'd like to get to that a little bit later in the conversation. But for now, what's really striking me is this idea of how much personal power then we end up giving to money when it probably doesn't want our power. It's just this neutral tool like you were saying before. And yet, who doesn't feel powerless
Elizabeth:when
Wendy:they look at their bank account balance or they get a big bill or they lose their job or whatever. And then of course, why wouldn't you blame money? Damn it.
Elizabeth:Right.
Wendy:Yeah. Let me get Here
Elizabeth:go again. This is the pattern. Right? Right. A 100%.
Elizabeth:And I think what's really important is that our relationship to money can be a foundation of connection despite the fact that money and people are cyclical. Right? Like, I can have a foundational relationship with my husband and not expect him to wake up happy every day. If I did expect that, I'd be wildly disappointed. Right?
Elizabeth:Or my daughter who's a teenager. But the connection is what allows me to stay in intimate relationship with my family members even through the cycles of emotion. So the same thing applies to money. Money is cyclical. Economics is cyclical.
Elizabeth:Right? If you look at any picture of the stock market, it will go up and it will go down. So the the the cycles of economics are growth, recession, depression. Growth, recession, depression. Now I love words and language.
Elizabeth:Right? Recess. It's literally recession is recess, so take a break. Depression is depressed. Take your foot off the pedal.
Elizabeth:Something isn't working, right, when we go through economic recession and depression. And that's actually where we're able to lean into the human creativity to redefine and redesign things from a different angle. So if we allow our relationship to money to be the foundational connection and it to also have its own cycles, then we're less thrown off our core, thrown off center when money goes up and down. Right? It will go up and down.
Elizabeth:We breathe in and out, and I think that's a piece, Wendy. People really love money in one direction, which is up. And imagine if your partner said, I only love you if you're up, and you're like, well, wait a second. What happens when I'm down? Right?
Elizabeth:And so part of it is when we put it in this comical terms, we're like, of course, I wouldn't want that in my partner. And so the same thing. When we start to look at a relationship to mine and be like, let's just treat it as a relationship, the connection can be stable, but the movement can be cyclical.
Wendy:What you're talking about, I've become intimately aware of as a business owner for the last ten years, a small business owner, the ebb and flow of income. Yeah. Which is the polar opposite of having a steady job where you're especially if you're on salary, and you get the same amount every two weeks or whatever. And you don't experience that ebb and flow. So not directly anyway, unless it's like your investments or that kind of thing, or you lose your job.
Wendy:But it's it gives almost the illusion that it's gonna be a constant. And then when it goes away, it's probably even more devastating.
Elizabeth:Yeah. Yeah. And this is really important, Wendy. It's like, again, we're not taught about this in school or in college. Right?
Elizabeth:This idea of what is our what is our relationship to money. And so to your point, my dad was a w two. Right? There's two ways we earn. We're either a w two, and it's a steady paycheck ish, right, or you're clocking hours for a steady hourly, or you're an entrepreneur, and it's cyclical.
Elizabeth:Right? And you build that pipeline of clienteles or services. And I had been raised by a w two, and so the paycheck always came. So there's a steadiness to it. But I knew actually, I didn't know that because I didn't know the distinction back then.
Elizabeth:I'm like, I wanna work for myself. But I no one had taught me that was cyclical. I'm like, no wonder money and I were struggling. Because I was like, wow. Yeah.
Elizabeth:This is feeling super insecure, and it's very different than what I grew up with. Right? And so, again, if we were taught this, then we'd be able to be, like, almost like our relational styles. Right? Like, what's your love language?
Elizabeth:It's like, what's your money language? Are you someone who thrives better with consistency? Maybe a w two path is better for you. Are you someone who thrives more with freedom? Maybe an entrepreneur path.
Elizabeth:You know what I mean? And so but, again, if we were to speak of it in that kind of more neutral language, it's really about understanding our money personality and making decisions where you and money can feel aligned and as if you were allies and each other's best friend.
Wendy:I love that. You know, it's very shamanic what you're talking about.
Elizabeth:A 100%.
Wendy:Yeah. Very Yeah. That relational perspective of being in relationship with.
Elizabeth:Yeah.
Wendy:A friend of mine, Linda, she came up with this workshop that she and I and another friend co facilitated. It was for small business owners about connecting with the spirit of your business.
Elizabeth:Yeah.
Wendy:And giving it personhood that it has its own intelligence. Right?
Elizabeth:Yeah.
Wendy:But that's such a different way of looking at having a business. It maybe it's a little out there for a lot of folks. But No.
Elizabeth:Can can we just go there for a second, guys?
Wendy:Much. Yeah.
Elizabeth:I don't necessarily share this with all clients. Could not all clients let me have this conversation, but I very much treat money as a spirit animal. Like, have I have many spirit animals and many guides, and money is one of them. And literally, when I I have money's on my altar. I have ritual with money.
Elizabeth:Right? I very much treat it as an energetic presence in my life, and ultimately has become a mirror and a guide. And so I 100% agree with you. I had a teacher. I worked very closely for many years with Malodoma Somai.
Elizabeth:He was a West African elder. He would speak I know
Wendy:his name. Yeah.
Elizabeth:Yeah. He would speak about you know, my husband and I worked with him for over a decade, and he would teach us spiritual technologies. And so there is a way in which money is a technology. We can't over give its power. Right?
Elizabeth:It's almost like giving my phone too much power to define me because I'm, like, stuck on social media and likes. You each technology has its wisdom in its shadow. Right? But if we are able to be nimble and meet the technology as a peer, then it can be a very potent mirror into co creating reality together. Well
Wendy:said. Mhmm. I mean, all the things that you're saying today, and you bring up in your book really point to the deficits in our cultural worldview, right, which is and forgive me folks for talking about this again, but the cultural worldview of colonial mind that our culture is based on, right, which is about ownership of the earth and its resources and manipulating the environment to make it the way we want it to be and and people as well. And then all of the things that come from that, like money and success, the American dream, and every man for himself, and it's okay if you step on people to get to where you need to be kind of thing. It's it's the opposite of indigenous mind, is relational.
Wendy:You're really inviting us to be in relationship with
Elizabeth:these
Wendy:concepts that I don't know if we ever really think about.
Elizabeth:Yeah. And I'm inviting all of us to participate. Right? I have feet in lots of different worlds. I work in finance, and I'm deeply spiritual and a ritualist.
Elizabeth:Right? So I have feet in many different worlds. It's equally important, and my two kind of values are depth and wealth. And when I'm working with clients who have a lot of money, I'm really bringing that depth perspective. And I'm working with people in my spiritual retreat workshops.
Elizabeth:I'm really bringing in that wealth perspective. Because I think the more we can navigate these different worlds, right, the more we can really harness that power of creativity. And especially for people who are culturally creative humans, channel as much money as you can towards the things you believe in. And it requires working through the interference that we have and judgment. I mean, I'm the first to have judgment, right, around people use money for evil, and people do and it's true.
Elizabeth:People do a lot of crazy things that I do not agree with.
Wendy:But Yeah. Have no idea what you're talking about, especially right
Elizabeth:now as
Wendy:we're recording Oh my goodness.
Elizabeth:But here's the thing. You know, and I can't tell you that is a big part of my conversation clients right now. You know, a lot of people are angry, and rightfully so. This is not the country I believe in. Right?
Elizabeth:And yet, I think what's really important is to let's not waste time blaming money because we scapegoat the real change. Let's continue to be the humans we believe in and use all the resources at our fingertips to make that change come into reality. Right? And so I've had to dig deep and continue to promote my work in a moment that at times feels bleak because that's how I participate in changing the reality. I've had to have really good conversations with clients to be like, maybe this is not the year to look for a new investment.
Elizabeth:Maybe this is the year to do more charitable giving than we've ever done because those organizations need it most. Right? Because funding is being cut. So it's like and I say that, and I get chills in my body because we do have agency. Maybe this is a year that I'm gonna take a spending sabbatical on this because I guess what?
Elizabeth:I'm gonna commit to living within my means and get off the rat race of feeling like I need more money to feel happy. I mean, I could sit here all day long and spout ideas of how to do it, but let's take responsibility for owning that money and wealth are different things and for taking the journey to understand what does that mean for each of us.
Wendy:So that makes me think about how much we've attached survival to money. I mean, because I know in fallow times, it feels like it's life or death kind of I that's dramatic. It's not that bad, but
Elizabeth:it's But it does feel that way. You're not wrong. Yeah. We I mean, you say that I know exactly what that feels like in my body. We all feel it.
Wendy:Right. Oh, that that's good. Okay. Because I was being dramatic, but I guess not. But it the fact that it's equated so closely with with survival
Elizabeth:Mhmm.
Wendy:Is like a prison. It keeps you in this little box of, like, I just have to I have to earn x amount of dollars, or I have to find a way to get more money. Or if I don't, horrible, horrible things are gonna happen. I'll be homeless. I'll be with I'll be unable to feed myself and my family.
Wendy:Whatever. Mean, of the worst case scenario things come into our minds. Yeah. So I guess that stuff runs so deep, which leads me to think about this other really important piece in your book that you talk about, which is financial DNA. And my understanding is it's the kind of cultural beliefs and the familial beliefs, the ancestral beliefs that we acquire around money and wealth, and how they impact us unconsciously, I would suggest, right?
Wendy:So can you talk about that some?
Elizabeth:Of course, and would take it even back, like, when you were first talking about this, right, the imagery I was getting is that and Michael Ester talks about in his book, The Scarcity Brain. Even beyond the last generation of ancestors, for centuries, we have been wired to seek for survival. And so let's just again accept that as a neutral fact. That's how we're wired, and it's how our brain keeps us safe. So thank you, Mind Center, for helping us stay safe and surviving and imagining where am I going to get calories, where am I going get shelter, how am I going to stay protected.
Elizabeth:That is just part of our organisms to stay safe, to also reproduce, all the things. And so that's way past kind of the ancestors that we know. Then our own stage of ancestors have their stories. Their stories on money successes, money failures, scarcity, where they felt wealth, where they felt poverty, etcetera. I do find it's important to the extent that you can, if you know your ancestors, to take a moment and look back, not necessarily with the intention of needing to heal their journey, their journey was their journey, you're not responsible for their journey.
Elizabeth:But when you sit down and you look at the past, your money story and their money story, you can start to get some important nuggets and make some important decisions of what from that story do you potentially wanna take on, pass on to the next generation as financial legacy and inheritance. Which parts of those story no longer serve you? So a big reason of why I wrote this book was because I was committed to not passing scarcity on to my teenage daughter. Right? And the reality is, as I mentioned before, you know, I grew up with two working parents.
Elizabeth:My dad in particular was a W-two. He was a physician. We had more than enough to pay for our bills, to pay for school. We got to travel to see my family in Colombia. You know, I grew up financially stable.
Elizabeth:And yet why was there a sense of scarcity in my home? That was always what confused me. I'm like, it just doesn't add up. We have what we need. We can go to the bookstore and buy books for the summertime, right, on as I get on an airplane to travel internationally and see my family in Colombia.
Elizabeth:But why is it that we feel tense and scarcity? And I started to trace it back to my grandfather, who had been a survivor in the Second World War because he was an Austrian Jew and had to flee. And my story persecution is very shared with a lot of people. Persecution, slavery, these are sadly the chapters of human society that have marked us. And so my grandfather was always preparing for World War three, right?
Elizabeth:And my father was raised within that scarcity, and he just no one taught him to ever address it, so it got passed on to me. And no one taught me to address it, but I started but my mom was a therapist, and so she would have us make these family meetings. I'm like, okay, how do therapy and scarcity come together? We start to have inquiry. What is this about?
Wendy:Way. Really.
Elizabeth:Yeah. My mom was a therapist. She didn't start asking me these questions. Although in chapter eight, I do quote her where she would because she didn't come from a lot. She was the the oldest of six in Columbia.
Elizabeth:And, like, my grandma made all their clothes, and they shared one car, and they would pile in before seat belts. Right? It was not safe, but they were happy together in, like, my grandfather's little Renault in Colombia. So she taught me to when I would when I would eat a meal, to eat to the point that I felt satisfied and not over full. Right?
Elizabeth:She was like because they had to share a lot. So eat until you're satisfied. Don't feel like she wasn't it didn't come from a place of scarcity. Like, oh, you can only have so much, but, like, learn to feel in my body when was I satisfied to know when there was enough. Like, little did she know how much that was a core piece of what I was gonna be teaching the world.
Elizabeth:Right? And so and yet her scarcity, Wendy, was that she had the same loss of homeland as my grandfather, because she didn't want to stay in The States. She wanted to go back to Colombia for fifty years. So where have I felt scarcity in my wealth map has been around belonging. Right?
Elizabeth:My grandfather lost his homeland, my mom lost her homeland. I was raised in The States as first generation within a very Latin community. I never quite felt like I belonged. Always felt like I was like the ugly duckling who didn't look like anyone else in the South. So all these things started to shape where I felt poor and scarce.
Elizabeth:And so I'm like, oh, got it. Wealth is so much more broader than financial stability. Because guess what? It was definitely not buying us happiness. It was not buying us emotional stability.
Elizabeth:Right? My parents loved each other, they loved me, but there was tension. And so I think when I started to understand what had shaped me, I can now look forward and make different decisions for what I pass on to my daughter.
Wendy:Well, thanks mom for planting that seed. I mean, really? Yeah, how many how many people have that level of insight?
Elizabeth:Yeah,
Wendy:that's amazing. I mean, that's really amazing. Yeah. It does seem to be that this financial DNA is so deeply embedded that you don't even realize what's influencing you. Right?
Elizabeth:Yeah. And so let's tie it back to what we were talking about before, Wendy, of the scarcity brain. Because again, if we had eons of ancestors having the scarcity brain to seek for survival, thank you very much ancestors, if we're talking, Wendy, our ancestors survived. If we wouldn't be talking, they wouldn't be. Good job.
Elizabeth:Thank you, ancestors. But then, how do we not get stuck in the scarcity loop? Because we're like, that doesn't feel good. And so again, coming back to my mom's wisdom around satisfaction, is leaning into your body center to complement what your mind center is trying to do. Your mind center is trying to analyze, figure out, forecast, keep you safe.
Elizabeth:Great. Thank you, mind. We're like, okay. Let me take it to the meditation, Matt, and see if you can just chill out for a second. That helps, but not if we don't apply it to our relationship to wealth and money.
Elizabeth:So one of the key contributions, I would say, to my field is taking the work of Lynn Twist, who worked for twenty years around sufficiency, knowing we have enough, to satiation, feeling we are enough. And there's a key distinction. As you start to tune into your body center and recognize the ways you feel satisfied and fulfilled, it is visceral. Not gratitude. Gratitude is a heart centered emotion of I feel warmth in my heart.
Elizabeth:No, I'm talking about visceral. It's what you feel after an amazing workout where you worked really hard and your body was sweating. It's what you feel when you just pause and feel like breeze on your skin. Right? It's when you eat a nourishing meal in contrast to empty calories.
Elizabeth:It is a body visceral feeling of enoughness and fulfillment. And one of the things I tell Wendy is for thirty days, can you just at the end of your day, a thirty day satiation challenge. Write three things that satisfied you that day. Where you felt fulfilled, satisfied, meaning. And just take note.
Elizabeth:Don't analyze it, write it, and after thirty days go back and read it in one fell swoop, what are some of the patterns and strategies that you start to repeat themselves? And then you literally digest it. It's funny, one of the things that most readers have loved is this concept of swallowing. So swallow. Like, swallow that moment of meaning.
Elizabeth:Swallow that satisfaction. See it go all the way to every cell in your body, and then imagine that sense of fulfillment and meaning starting compound just like we want interest to compound in our portfolios. Let it compound and let right? Like, that the cover has this beautiful image of the well of worthiness when we're starting to fill ourselves up from the inside out. And the more we do that, Wendy, it doesn't necessarily it doesn't solve like, there's no magic pill.
Elizabeth:We're not trying to solve for the cycles of money. It's going to be cyclical. But the place that we meet it from is very different than if I'm meeting the cycles of money from super tension and scarcity. Meet it from the place of being connected to your well of worthiness, to your power of enough, to your ability to satiate yourself, and you're able to face that cycle in a different place.
Wendy:It's a great distinction and a really important one. And that exercise you suggested, and there's plenty in your book of really cool exercises. It's such a it's such a simple way. It reminds me of the direction of positive psychology. Like, three good things that happened to you that day.
Wendy:Write down three good thing or talk about it over dinner with your family or your loved ones. You were talking about your mom. I was thinking about my mom and the really messed up message that I got about money from her. So just to share a quick story. My mom had this very fantastical story about money.
Wendy:I think she saw herself as a very wealthy person. But we were a working class. And both my parents had to work. There was definitely always struggle. Right?
Wendy:So I think the reality versus her mindset or her fantastical idea that she had all of this money, and she would she would demonstrate it by spending money she did not have. And she would play around with credit card debt and and my dad had no interaction with their financial well-being. He had no idea what was going on. He just left it to her, old school. So just as an example of how this played out and what I witnessed and what really messed with my head was like, she would take me to go school shopping for my clothes for the next school year.
Wendy:Right? And kinda had this controlling thing where she would pick out my clothes for me. I think you would look good in this. I think you would look good in this. And because she was paying, I felt like I I owed her that Mhmm.
Wendy:Yep. To make those decisions on my behalf. And so I'd go try them on and model them for her, and she'd spent a shit ton of money Mhmm. On a credit card for these clothes. And then we get in the car, pile the clothes into the back, and she would not talk to me for the rest of the day until my dad got home because she was so angry she spent this money.
Wendy:Like, she was so psyched to spend it, and then afterwards she would not talk to me. Yeah. It was really confusing. Right? Super.
Wendy:Dad would come home and she'd say, you should show dad your new clothes. And it was like the last four hours never happened where she didn't talk to me. It's like so so like this this really confusing kind of message around money. So that's just another example of how insidious it can be, and you don't even realize how much that kind of stuff can impact. And where did she get that from?
Elizabeth:Yeah. Let's pause there, Wendy, because you gave such a great example. So thank you for sharing, right? Like, that's my other intention with the book is for us to talk more about this, right? Because the more we talk about it, the less it has hold in our body.
Elizabeth:But in that description, a couple of things that I felt was like I felt a huge disconnect, right, between the experience of being told here you can wear this and I'm doing this for you to then being totally ignored. I mean, talk about the impact on secure attachment with your mama, right, to feel that. And then the feeling too of the disconnect in you being able to choose how you wanna engage with the material world. What what clothes feel good to you. You know what I mean?
Elizabeth:And being told, this is what we're gonna put on your body to model for me. Right? Probably as a way to fit in or whatever your mom was doing, and the disconnect to be like, wait. In the reality, you probably wanted the connection with your mom more than you wanted this clothes. Yeah.
Elizabeth:Yeah. Then when she would disappear, the disappointment. I wouldn't be surprised if there was definitely a little bit of hesitancy relationship to my, I don't know money. That did not turn out too well when you were introduced to me with through mom. Right?
Elizabeth:And so I think the more that you start to be and I have no idea how much you probably have done a ton of work, Wendy, in this relationship. And if I can just add to that nugget, it would be just to, like
Wendy:Oh, there's always more to do. Yeah.
Elizabeth:Totally. It just to be to to, like almost like you and money can be like, yay. That was so screwed up. Like, money, I'm sorry that happened to you, and money would say, Wendy, I'm sorry that happened to you. That is not how we should have met.
Elizabeth:Right? And to be like, okay. We wrote that. That happened. I can't go back and change it, but, money, let's try it again.
Elizabeth:How should we have met? What are your ideas? What are my ideas? What how could we have reframed that scene better? Right?
Elizabeth:And, like, that's the relationship you and I wanna have, money. And then you can start to take the responsibility of designing because you know yourself so much more as an adult right now to be like, yeah. I would not have done that that way.
Wendy:Right. Right. Yeah. Those are great insights. Yeah.
Wendy:I'll have to play around with that because I don't have a great relationship with money now. I'm definitely in I have scarcity head. So that's why I was extra psyched to get the invitation to talk to you.
Elizabeth:I would say that, Wendy. Sit down and be like, hey, money. Let me tell you how screwed up that was. And and let money have a response. And this is really important, Wendy, is I tell people no one should stand between you and relationship to money.
Elizabeth:No parent, no spouse, no sibling, no financial advisor, no CPA, no investment manager. And I don't say that to take myself out of the job. I will always have a job because but guess what? Everyone wants to talk about money. Right.
Elizabeth:So I will have a job for a long time. But much like you're not necessarily inviting your therapist to live with you and your partner, hopefully that's not what's happening. Your relationship to money needs to be direct, and things have happened which don't feel good, we're not proud of, felt like were imposed on us, but tell those stories so that you and money can have a relationship with a clean slate.
Wendy:I love it. Yes. And hopefully, that's an invitation for anybody who might be listening.
Elizabeth:A 100%. Oh my goodness. Tell your money story.
Wendy:Because we all got them, ladies and gentlemen.
Elizabeth:Oh, yeah.
Wendy:So before we wrap up, I wanna talk a little bit about meaning and your take on meaning and this subject.
Elizabeth:Yeah. Oh my goodness. I love meaning. I'm like, for me, the world is about meaning. And, one of one of the things one of my contributions was getting super clear that there is an abundant scarcity loop that we can get stuck in, which basically means I'm gonna push scarcity away by trying to grab on for more.
Elizabeth:And I'm grasping onto abundance by pushing scarcity, and we get stuck in the slip, and we're like, why doesn't it not feel any different? Right? Even if I got more money, still feel scarcity. So what I do is that I situate. I don't get rid of that cycle.
Elizabeth:That is part of the cycle of survival, and there's a lot that we figure out in ourselves by figuring out how to create financial stability in our lives. But that can't be the end goal. That is not why we came here, right, to exist on this world, in this realm. The end goal is really about creating meaning and fulfillment in your own life, in your communities, in the world around us. So we can do that still within a financial foundation and economic framework.
Elizabeth:Right? And so then I add in the meaning and fulfillment cycle, which is just as important to have parallel to the abundance scarcity cycle, which is where we're taking the we're taking our relationship to wealth, and we didn't dive too much into it, but I use a tool called the wealth mandala or wealth map. Right? It's a Sanskrit word for circle, and it's it's basically one circle that uses the science of human needs that we know came from I mean, it's come from a lot of people, but Maslow made it popular. I've studied with other economists, and it's basically saying we have universal human needs.
Elizabeth:So I use 12. You can add a couple extra if I didn't name your really important one. So 12 human needs, but the way we satisfy them is unique and personal. So that's really important. Right?
Elizabeth:So financial stability is one of those 12 human needs. Physical safety, connection, belonging, purpose, I can name all 12 of them. But what's really important is that when we see financial stability as one of the 12 slices of the pie, we recognize that we can't put all of our attention, focus, and resources just there. And then we do have to make sure that we feel some level of stability. Right?
Elizabeth:And if that house is on fire, that house is on fire, we need to address it. But equally important in parallel is addressing the wealth in these other areas of our life. Right? And coming back to the question around meaning is that a lot of times our meaning doesn't come from our financial stability slice of the pie. That's what gives us our house and our shelter and our clothes.
Elizabeth:Meaning is found a lot in purpose, in participation, in understanding, in connection, in belonging, in leisure when we're kind of thinking about creativity. Right? And so if we don't situate wealth more broadly, we're robbing ourselves. It is a negative return on the investment of life. Well, And what's the whole point?
Elizabeth:My grandfather taught me we die with $0. Right?
Wendy:That's right.
Elizabeth:And so if we situate wealth within meaning and fulfillment, we really start to find joy, not just in our relationship to money, but in our relationship to wealth.
Wendy:Beautiful. Okay. So I mean, and especially now, the idea of focusing on meaning is really important. Yeah. Because it it can pull you out of fear.
Elizabeth:Mhmm.
Wendy:If you have something to strive for, I think. Just my 2ยข there. A 100%. Yeah.
Elizabeth:And it helps us start to pave the way for what's next to come. Exactly. I wish I could fast forward right now, and I can't. But I can deepen my experience of meaning.
Wendy:Exactly. My new favorite word is possibility. Yeah. And that's what that's what a lot of what you're talking about is in is different ways of being in relationship with money and now with wealth, separating the two and seeing what's possible for yourself in this new relationship.
Elizabeth:Yeah. And let me say one last thing here, Wendy, before we start to close or as we start to close is that intentionally, I wrote a book that had nothing to do with investment strategies and numbers. Right? I mean, I do that all day long with clients. But intentionally, I wrote a book called The Power of Enough, where we could have so many different entry points into talking about money and wealth as an experience.
Elizabeth:Because if that is the foundation that we start from, then we can go back to our spreadsheets from a different place of possibility to use your word. And that is a very different experience of engaging with money than from a place of like, oh my goodness. The world is on fire. My life is on fire, and I just feel so tight, and I have to figure out this money situation. Right?
Elizabeth:I had teachers Mhmm. Tell me, if you start to close, the magic doesn't happen. So put your spreadsheet down for a second. Put your money worries down. Write them on a list if you need to come back to them.
Elizabeth:Take the journey of the power of enough so that you can connect to a different framework and start to feel possibility, and then come back to financial stability, slice of the pie, and see what's different.
Wendy:Love it. Alright. So besides this incredible book, are there other ways in which you're you're working with people? Do you offer workshops or classes or courses online or anything like that?
Elizabeth:Yes. So they will come. Right? I have given myself the permission to birth the book in just birthing the book, but I am building a lit I mean, so I have a ton of free resources on my website. If you add your name to my mailing list, I will start to do more offerings probably towards the end of the year once I'm done with the book tour.
Elizabeth:And also, you can follow me on Instagram. It's at Elizabeth Husserl. I try to give meaningful content, different podcasts that I'm on and different exercises and thoughts. But connect with me that way, and and I will keep people posted for when there's other opportunities to work because, you know, I'm committed to more people having deep, meaningful conversations around money.
Wendy:Great. And what is your website?
Elizabeth:It's Elizabeth Husserl. So Elizabeth with a z, then Husserl is husserlcom. If you go to the resource page, there's a ton of free resources from the book. It makes more sense if you read the book and take the journey but there's things that you can start today.
Wendy:Excellent. Okay. Elizabeth, thank you. You. Thank you.
Wendy:I really appreciate this conversation very much.
Elizabeth:Yeah. You're so welcome, Wendy. Thank you for having me. Alright.
Wendy:So I guess it's time to stop scapegoating money and to take it out for an ice cream. I mean, well, money will pay for the ice cream, so there's that. That was super meta. If you'd like to transform your money story, please visit elizabethhusserl.com using the link in the show notes. Thanks for listening.
Wendy:I think you're top notch and deserve an ice cream that your new friend money will pay for. I'll be back in a few weeks with a crazy informative episode with a woman who's written a comprehensive book about ways we can help our dog friends live long and healthy lives using herbal remedies. It's a really cool conversation. I hope you'll join me for that. Until next time.
